Why does it seem like a sneaky loophole? It kind of looks well thought out to me.

Ahhh...excellent point.

Esp the ones wrapped in bacon

Could you explain how boys are a conduit for butter? That's the part that confuses me. Maybe I've been doing it wrong all these years. That would explain why I'm a sad lonley man.

Maybe she means "toe butter"?

Are lions immoral for eating meat?

@SPK - No, they're immoral for not riding bikes.

I understand his arguments in favor of eating oysters - but don't milk, cheese, and eggs also lack nervous systems, and fit his other criteria, too?

@Rey: You don't know how many cows accidentally died to bring you that milk!

@ Graham - Did you see Last Tango In Paris?

For the most part vegans do not consume animal products because we do not believe in eating them. So I guess it's more of a matter of what can't feel pain for this guy.

@Reymont: Oyster suffering seems on the surface a lot less than cows forced to lactate into sucking machines that give them nasty sores long after they should have stopped lactating...or chickens crammed into cages where they can barely move for their entire lives.

Following the Golden Rule I would much rather be a harvested oyster than a dairy cow or chicken.

Just saying. Good point on the bikes though.

Cox also pointed out that the classification system we use to separate plant from animal is a really old one that even saw black Africans and white Europeans as different species, so maybe it shouldn't be the last word in classification.

I think he forfeits his right to call himself a vegan, but who really gives a shit about classifications? As long as he is thinking critically about his impact on the environment and on reducing unnecessary suffering, and acting according to his conscience, I'm happy.

I think I love this intern. Can we keep her?

January's use of photo credits makes it seem as if my former wagemasters at Wired make their fortunes by publishing homoerotic images of Chuck Norris (as opposed to homoerotic images of the iPad).

@ sueno: Speaking of sucking machines ... actually I don't have a follow up comment, but man, those machines suck, amirite?

Bacon wrapped in Oysters for me. Ahh, forget about it. I'll take my old sinful ways and go back to sushi and barbecued dog.

@sueno - And free range chickens? Farm eggs? And don't dairy cows feel a lot of pain if you don't milk them?

I'll point out that it wouldn't make business sense for a sucking machine to leave open sores on the cow. That might contaminate the milk, and slow down production. But accidents happen, which surely resulted in some wonderful pictures for you to feel self-righteous about.

@reymont drinking milk contributes to veil. cows are constantly kept pregnant and their babies taken from them shortly after birth so we can drink their milk and they can live in tiny crates and slaughtered at 3 months old. that milking cow will also live a much shorter life due to constant impregnation.

but what about how we catch oysters? i know nothing about it, but if they use nets or anything they are most likely killing other sea animals too.

The chickens that live in my neighbor's back yard have better living conditions than billions of humans worldwide. I bet if they could, they wouldn't change a thing. Can someone explain to me the moral problem associated with eating the unfertilized eggs they are going to lay anyway?

@reymont - When the USDA found out that the sucking machines where causing cows to have open soars and it was contaminating the milk with puss, you know what they did? Instead of getting rid of the sucking machines they just raised the legal limit for puss in milk.

Cows, like humans, poodles, rats and all other mammals only produce milk if they are pregnant or nursing. So the industry keeps them in a constant cycle of pregnancy so they will constantly produce milk. When their bodies wear out and their milk production slows down when they are about 4-5 years old (they could live 20-25 years if left alone) they are considered "spent" and sold for hamburger.

Of course, all those pregnant cows means there are a lot of baby cows born. The babies are taken away from their mothers within 1-3 days so all of the milk can be sold for profit. The girls are either sold for beef or used to replaced the spent cows in the dairy herd. The males are sold for beef or crammed into tiny veal crates in such a way that they can't move around to produce weaker, softer muscle tissue called veal. They are also often put on an artificial diet intended to produce borderline anemia so they have paler flesh.

Hens at free-range egg farms start off life at a hatchery. Half the chicks that hatch at a hatchery are male. Since the males don't lay eggs or grow fast enough for meat, they are thrown away into dumpsters and allowed to suffocate or they are tossed into machines and ground up alive and turned into dog food or fed back to the hens.

Since the hens will be crammed into giant, "cage-free" sheds by the thousands, they have the tips of their beaks seared off with a hot blade to prevent them from pecking at each other out of overcrowding induced frustration. Birds have a lot of nerve endings in their beaks, so debeaking causes severe and chronic pain. Some of the birds are in so much pain that they are unable to eat and they starve to death. But the industry has done the math and they know they can make more money by shoving 100,000 chickens inside a single warehouse than they can by giving them enough room that they don't peck at each other.

In nature, chickens lay about 25 eggs a year. Modern egg laying hens, including the free range ones, have been bred to produce about 300 eggs a year. This takes a huge toll on their bodies and they get osteoporosis and other crippling diseases because of it. When their egg production declines, usually when they are about 1 1/2 years old, they are often put through a process called forced molting - where they are literally starved and kept in the dark for a period of about 2 weeks. The stress and lighting shocks their bodies into another laying cycle. Then the hens are gathered up and trucked to the same slaughterhouses that kill factory farmed hens. They are shackled upside down, run through an electrified pool of water to make their bodies stiffen up, then they have their throats slit. Many are still alive and conscious when their bodies are dumped into scalding hot defeathering tanks.

Your comment about "self-righteous" people may make you feel better by shifting the blame onto others, but ultimately this issue isn't about me or you. It is about the animals and the obvious and needless suffering they are forced to endure by the billions for the sake of profit and convenience.

It is good that you are asking questions. That's how it always starts.

"open soars" sound awesome. Where do I apply?

@Allen Sneed: That's some nice Cut'n'Paste. But really, who's letting a not-useful cow live 20-25 years? That seems wasteful and unproductive in the extreme; it's just consuming and shitting for 20 years with no output. Bad for the environment, etc.

But you're making a lot of judgement calls that have no basis in fact. Come back when you've got something better than a call to morals.

@eye of raw: You could try reading the linked articles that deal with the topic in detail. But that's just a crazy idea.

Also, veil and veal are different things. Your sentances were confusing until I figured that out.

@Graham Maybe they are Muslim cows? Just a thought.

This reminds me of vegans who smoke. Apparently the animal testing, child labor, and millions of deaths every year doesn't bother them.

I was at the nursery on Mississippi on Saturday, and there were some little chicks in a warm, dry box inside the building. They couldn't have been more than 2 or 3 days old, and I guarantee they had never been physically harmed in their brief little lives.

If some bike riding liberal takes a few of them home to a backyard Taj Mahal chicken coup, (and based on my experience in this city, there's a good chance some males are among the group), and eats the eggs they will produce no matter what (ignoring that their ancestors may have been bred for egg production), what's the harm? I know some people would have a problem with that, and I seriously want to know why.

@Andy Mesa,
Vegans that drive/ride in motor vehicles piss me off, too. Apparently those dinosaurs and folks in the middle east don't matter!

/stupid argument

@Graham - "veal" still doesn't make sense to me. Drinking milk contributes to veal? Sounds more likely than 'veil,' but...what?

Thank you, Austin. Jesus Christ, I love me the vegan hypocrisy police.

I'm not vegan, but holy fuck is it weird how personally affronted some people get when they encounter, GASP, people who think killing animals and using their bodies to suit our wants (only very rarely actual needs) is something they would like to avoid.

But woe to the vegetarian/vegan who isn't doing an entirely perfect job of it at all times*: that person is stupid, hypocritical, and all-around worse than Hitler.

* First they will point out that perfection is factually impossible, which automatically makes it completely not worth attempting/utterly wrong, which is a bit like saying Albert Pujols should quit playing baseball because he can only get a hit 1/3 times. Also, Pujols is thus stupid, shrill, defying nature, and Hitler-esque.

"Can someone explain to me the moral problem associated with eating the unfertilized eggs they are going to lay anyway?"

Neo-hippies need something to rail against, mostly. Also, they hate that we have delicious omelettes while they're forced to eat soy everything lest their hirsute female life partner leave them for a drum circle leader named Sky Mocassin Fruit Bat.

(Also, in the interest of full disclosure, I eat meat, couldn't give less of a fuck what you eat, but do get sexually excited by angerin' up the blood of anyone who subscribes to nearly militant levels of furor in the defense/propogation of their own beliefs.

If you were a Juggalo, a Christian, a minority, a homosexual or an ancient Egyptian Sphinx who was on the verge of burning down an orphanage merely because it wasn't packed full of children with the bodies of unexpectedly winged lions and the heads of slightly less unexpectedly omniscient humans, I would probably also take good time out of my day to personally make fun of your most obvious characteristics.

Anything less would be irresponsible Internettin'.)

Noone is perfect, not even vegans. And about the backyard chickens- these guys are free to run around and hang out with their buddies. Unused eggs are often smashed and eaten by hens to reingest some of the calcium. Raising your own animals also brings you back into the process and forces you to feel some empathy for the animal. What I take issue with is the suffering. In factory farms the suffering is just depressing, but if you are treating a few animals with care in your own yard, that's your choice.
We are all constantly evolving, for better or worse but like I said NOONE is perfect, noone

@graham
you can visit industry websites that have all these facts laid out in plain view. It's just what they do, not really something that is up for debate, it's the standard.

@commenty colin -well said.