IS IT BETTER TO HAVE 150,000,000 CHINESE PEASANTS STARVE TO DEATH IN RICE PADDIES OR RE-EDUCATION CENTERS OR HAVE THEM MAKE CONSUMER ELECTRONICS? YES, THINGS COULD BE BETTER; BUT THEY ALREADY ARE BETTER THAN THEY WERE. THINGS CHANGE SLOWLY, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE DEALING WITH STATE CONTROLLED BUSINESSES LIKE FOXCONN AND WHAT NOT. ALSO, FROM A HISTORICAL AND PHILOSOPHICAL PERSPECTIVE THIS SORT OF SMALL HUMAN LIFE TOLL IS A GOOD THING FOR CHINA. MANCHU CONQUEST (CE 1630; 25,000,000 DEAD), TAIPING REBELLION (CE 1850; 30,000,000 DEAD), DUNGAN REVOLT (CE 1862; 10,000,000), FOXCONN MANUFACTURING PLANT (CE 2012; 10 DEAD). THIS IS THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT (IF YOU DON'T THINK THESE CONDITIONS ARE HAPPENING AT THE APPROVAL OF THE CHINESE STATE, THEN YOU'RE AN IDIOT); THAT THEY'D RATHER HAVE SOME POOR WORKING CONDITIONS THAN TO HAVE 200,000,000 CORPSES TO CLEAN UP.

@ Graham, I think that's a false comparison. The article makes clear that the real issues are that Apple squeezes its suppliers so hard and only pays lip service to the issue of working conditions.

If Apple allowed its suppliers to earn an honest profit, they wouldn't be incentivized to drive their employees like cattle to squeeze every thin dime out of a deal.

Given that Apple just had it's most profitable quarter ever and it's the pre-eminent tech producer in the world, it's uniquely situated to fix this situation in a way that gets us our fancy products at a reasonable pace while injecting capital into developing economies while NOT abetting the grievous mistreatment of the factory workers they indirectly employ.

All Apple has to do is be happy making somewhat less of a profit, and slightly slowing the currently frenetic pace of releases. So it's not a "where do you want the pile of corpses, inside factories or outside in fields?" sort of situation, really.

Long hours for less than minimum wage? Is that why they're the worst drivers on the road and park in the middle of lanes?

@CC: I REALIZE THAT I CREATED A FALSE DICHOTOMY WITH MY EXAMPLE; IT WAS AN ATTEMPT AT HYPERBOLE FOR THE SAKE OF MAKING A POINT. I THINK THAT THIS FOCUSING ON APPLE IS A POOR THING TO DO. FOXCONN HAS SLIGHTLY LESS THAN A MILLION EMPLOYEES, ONLY A QUARTER OF THOSE ARE MANUFACTURING PRODUCTS FOR APPLE. SO YES, APPLE COULD DO STUFF THAT'S NICER; BUT THAT WON'T FIX THE MORAL ISSUE AT PLAY HERE. HOWEVER, I REALLY DO STAND BY THE IDEA OF "YES, IT'S NOT GOOD. IT COULD BE BETTER, BUT IT'S STILL MUCH BETTER THAN IT WAS.".

THE REAL POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE IS THAT FROM A SINO PERSPECTIVE; ANYTHING THEY CAN DO TO PREVENT ANOTHER EIGHT FIGURED DEATH TOLL IS A GOOD THING (I NEGLECTED TO MENTION THE FAMINE DEATHS FROM THE GREAT LEAP FORWARD IN MY FIRST POST: CE; 1958; DEATH TOLL: 35,000,000).

"My iPhone can make lightsaber sounds."
~Pinnacle of American intellect, 2012

Graham, your initial post is incomprehensibly stupid and offensive. You have a valid point buried in there somewhere -- I think we have to acknowledge that this kind of factory labor, as terrible and exploitative as it is, has vastly raised the standard of living for millions of people. But the business about the Taiping Rebellion and the Manchu conquest, and the remark about rice paddies and re-education centers? Ugh. C'mon. If you have something smart to say, say it without embellishing it with such outrageous bullshit. It ruins your argument.

I would suggest that if Apple tried to do the "nice" thing, and started paying their suppliers more than they absolutely had to, they would rapidly be undercut by another electronics company and lose market share. It's the market that decides how much those people get paid, not any one company.

Why all the scorn on Apple, and none for iPhone buyers? That's ridiculous.

@OVIDIUS: WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU FIND OFFENSIVE? EXPLAIN IT TO ME. I WAS TYRING TO PUT A HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE ON THE ATTROCITIES THAT HAVE HAPPENED TO THE CHINESE PEOPLE IN TH LAST 500 YEARS AND TO SHOW THAT THE CURRENT SYSTEM IS A VAST IMPROVEMENT ON THE WAY THINGS WERE. ARE MY FACTS WRONG? IS MY ANALYSIS WRONG?

@REYMONT: YOU'RE ASSUMING A FREE AND OPEN MARKET IN CHINA. THAT DOESN'T EXIST.

@Graham: 1)It implies that China's stability is directly the effect of the horrendous working conditions of their factory labor, and that workers in China are uppity and should be grateful that they aren't being massacred by warlords or starving. Also, it would logically follow that asking for improvements in pay and working conditions would endanger China's supposedly comfortable stability.

2) There is no real reason to say that "things change slowly." There does not seem to be any real reason why Apple, Foxconn, or the Chinese government could not change now and work to improve the conditions of labor.

3) The comparison of death tolls is crass, to say the least, and it is unnecessary, tasteless and in bad faith. Beyond that, t is unthinkable to turn that around on the US and suggest that we shouldn't work to improve racial disparity in employment and income because it's better than slavery (btw: 60,000,000 DEAD).

4) Just... why? You have a point. And I get it, it's flashy and gets you attention to make a point in favor of sweat shop labor (and it is a valid point). Do you need to make it flashier by dressing it up with the corpses of hundreds of millions of people?

@Ovidius Without "outrageous bullshit" what would Graham have left to say?


There's an awful lot of cognitive dissonance going on in today's GMN. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to work at a place that made me sign a "non-suicide pact." http://shanghaiist.com/2010/05/26/translat…

By Graham's logic, as long as Foxconn keeps it's death toll under 10 million, it can proceed to exploit the people it employs (as long as Apple and Americans don't object too loudly).

Indeed, the triangle shirtwaist fire wasn't really that big of a deal (historically speaking) because in the 17/18th century America killed millions of Indians and then in the 19th century enslaved millions of Africans. I mean that fire ONLY KILLED 146 people; that like not even worth worrying about.

These sort of historical comparisons are unworthy of the "serious debate" held here on blogtown because in almost every case, more people would have died in any line of work compared to today (historically speaking).


Apple bares a large part of the burden to fix these injustices and to be fair, they have released a damning report about the abuses in the factories they use. http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibi…

@ Reymont,

There's two arguments there for never doing anything:

1) "It's out of our hands." Quite simply, that's not true. Consumers pressure corporations all the time to change their ways, and they get results. Given how incredibly easy it is now to let specific corps know what each of us think about specific practices (and of course, our freedom to buy "better" or not at all), this argument is even less true now than ever before. Nike, Gap and others on sweatshop conditions, tons of banks lately (incl. BOA) on BS fees - pressure is easy, it works, and none of the above firms have gone out of business.

2) "We can't be mad at X because Y is bad too/worse." or #9's argument "no one can criticize anyone because we're all tangled in the same web of shitty conduct, one way or another."

First of all, Apple is in the best position to immediately fix the matter. Second, Apple is very easy to contact, while a jillion disparate iphone users aren't. It's simply impractical, in other words, and anyway, it's beside the point: there's no rule that you either target EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF EVERYTHING THAT IS WRONG OR ELSE DO NOTHING WHATSOEVER.

By the way, this is a favorite argument used by idiots to accuse vegetarians/vegans of "hypocrisy" because they're stepping on ants or inhaling microscopic animals.

"You know you roll stop signs on occasion, therefore you're a criminal, thus there's no reason you shouldn't be either robbing banks yourself or disapproving of those who rob banks."

LONGEST CHARACTER COUNT IN GMN EVER.

Well done, my fellow mouthy malcontents.

@Reymont - The NYTimes actually had a great piece over the weekend about why Apple (and many other companies) have shipped their manufacturing jobs overseas. They point out that companies that have stuck to American manufacturing—like GM—have wound up cutting even more jobs than Apple did when it started outsourcing. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business…

@OVIDIUS: YOU ARE CORRECT THAT I WAS SAYING THAT SOME OF CHINA'S NEW FOUND STABILITY IS DUE TO INDUSTRIALIZATION AND MODERNIZATION; HOWEVER YOU'RE COMPLETELT INCORRECT IN ASSIGNING TO ME THE IDEA THAT HORRENDOUS FACTORY CONDITIONS CAUSE THE STABILITY. THE MODERNIZATION IS THE CAUSE OF BOTH OF THOSE THINGS.

LOOK AT THE TRIANGLE FIRE THAT SUPERCHUND BROUGHT UP. HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF ON A CONTINUAL BASIS; THE TRIANGLE FIRE (WHILE HORRIBLE AND A TRAGEDY) BROUGHT ABOUT A GREAT DEAL OF POSITIVE CHANGES TO EMPLOYEE PROTECTIONS IN THE US AND CREATED A NET POSITIVE FOR THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY. I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE FIRE WAS A GOOD THING, BUT TO TRY AND TAKE A STEP BACK AND LOOK AT THE HOLISITIC IMPACT ON SOCIETY. NOW APPLY THOSE SORTS CYCLICAL LESSONS TO CHINA AND THEIR MOVEMENT THROUGH THE WATERS OF INDUSTRIALIZATION.

FOR US TO SAY, "HEY CHINA, WE WENT THROUGH THIS; LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES" WILL WORK AS EFFECTIVELY AS ANY ADULT TRYING TO TELL A REBELIOUS TEENAGER NOT TO DO SOMETHING. PEOPLE NEED TO LEARN FROM THEIR OWN MISTAKES IN ORDER TO ABSORB THE IMPORTANCE OF THOSE LESSONS.

COMPARISONS OF DEATH TOLLS MAY BE CRASS, BUT NOT UNJUSTIFIED. THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE IS THAT THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS COMPLETELY AWARE OF HOW CLOSE THEY ARE AT ANY MOMENT TO HAVING ANOTHER GREAT DIE OFF. THE HIGHEST ECHELONS OF THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS FULL OF SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS; THEY ARE LOOKING AT THIS FROM AN ANALYTICAL SYSTEMS-BASED PERSPECTIVE. I AM NOT ENDORSING THEIR METHODS, BUT MERELY TRYING TO EXPLAIN WHAT'S GOING ON.

WHY DOES APPLE BEAR A LARGER SHARE OF THE BURDEN TO CORRECT WORKING CONDITIONS IN CHINA THAN ANY OTHER COMPANY THAT HAS THEIR MANUFACTURING DONE THERE? THIS ISN'T TO SAY THAT THEY DON'T, I'M JUST CURIOUS WHY ALL THE ATTENTION IS ON THEM AND NOT SAY... AMAZON OR WAL-MART.

@Graham: Let's be honest and say that Apple is getting disproportionate attention in part because it irks people (people like me) that their immensely successful marketing and branding efforts have so endeared them to consumers that they seem exempt from criticism. It's true that some are tossing dirt clods at Steve Jobs' halo. But it's also the case, as Colin said, that there is a chance that consumer action can make a difference in the case of Apple, in part because the political leanings of their most ardent consumers.

There is no reason that conditions cannot change with pressure from American corporate interests and international pressure. This is not the 19th or early 20th century. To simply write this off as history inevitably repeating itself is simplistic and counter-productive. Superchund is right that historical comparisons like this are next to worthless.

How do those Apple jobs in China compare with the rest of the job scene over there?
Give it a rest 'occupy'.

@OVIDIOUS: I GUESS WE'LL HAVE TO AGREE TO DISAGREE ON THE UTILITY OF USING HISTORICAL PRECEDENT TO UNDERSTAND THE PRESENT AND TO PREDICT THE FUTURE.

@FRANKIEB: THAT IS POSSIBLY THE STUPIDEST THING YOU'VE EVER WRITTEN.

@Graham: We can agree on frankieb at least.

Explain why.

Not even one of you accused another of having a straw man argument. You've really let me down, Blogtown.

@Smirk - I think that article proves my point, right? The companies that didn't seek the absolute lowest cost have lost huge amounts of their business because of that decision. If Apple suddenly increased their costs, it'd give someone else the chance to undercut them - and the global market would reward THAT company.

@Graham - Not sure why you say a free market in China matters?

I've never bought an Apple products, and I've toured a lot of Asian electronics factories. I'm not vegan, I'm sure I own plenty of sweat shop products, and I probably step on ants. But I...well, when I read a story like this, it makes me look inward, at my responsibility for the problem. Sometimes get shocked when folks are so quick to blame others. In this case, while they are reading this on their iPhone.

@CC - And gosh, I didn't mean to imply that we shouldn't do anything! Yell at Apple...AND stop buying their freaking products!

this is nice