I'm upset at people that say "gun control doesn't work." Well- it's like Brussels sprouts. How about we try it, first? Also- "well, if someone had had a concealed carry permit." Those are legal, and it didn't stop this.

There's a discussion to be had on hunting weapons or on handguns. I've never lived anywhere I felt unsafe enough to think I need one.

There is zero - ZERO - reason any American civilian should be allowed to own or feel the need to own an assault rifle. None.

@astro - Would you same the same thing to the civilians in Syria, or the Jews in Poland in 1939?

What if Mitt Romney was President and was doing drone strikes to kill American citizens on American soil? I think you would probably want an assault rifle; I know that I would.

@Ophelia - Check the news today, yet another Gun Control law that was tried and was struck down by the courts. I linked to the court's reasoning in previous comments. There’s lots of “gun control” laws out there in other states, they don’t do anything except prevent good, law abiding people, from owning guns.

@Ophelia, I get your point, but anyone trying to confront a murderous rifle-armed and possibly armored subject with anything other than a rifle is just asking to be killed quickly and efficiently without doing a bit of good to stop the bad guy.

@ fidelity: that link doesn't work.

Well that just sucks.

@Fidelity, they said AMERICAN civilian and you bring up Polish Jews and Syria? Your whole argument went right out the window with your opening line. You should work on that.

Let's play out the scenario where other civilians had guns in the mall to "protect" themselves.

Crazy guy shoots someone. Other person sees this and pulls out his/her gun and tries to shoot the crazy guy, but misses and hits someone else in the mall. Oops!

Also, people could not know which guy is the "crazy guy" and which is the one "defending" everyone. Not everyone who shoots up a crowd dresses up for it. They could look similar. Which one do you shoot at?

Also, how much training would be required for concealed carry in a mall? Target practice doesn't train you for high stress situations.

@mcr86 - /sigh - My point is that everyone (not just Jews or Syrians) have a right to self-defense, and that it is unwise to restrict firearms from people, because sometimes really bad things happen – like Genocide. (Genocide and massacres typically only happen when one group is armed and the other is not.)

I don't know how you couldn't make that logical connection on your own. Oh, hey, I have something shiny, I'm going to toss it over here and see if you can go find it, OK? Have fun!

@human - Here's another link that's working fine for me:
http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/fdocs/docs.fwx…
OR: http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/tmp/NY151Q3Y.p…
OR: look up "Moore v. Madigan"

Basically, the laws prohibiting the carry of firearms in Illinois was struck down today. The reasoning and historical analysis is very compelling, but if you want a summary go look it up on Volokh.com.

@mirk – can the title “mass shooting” be removed now that we know that it was likely one shooter, and killed one person? Was their other injuries reported?

This never would have happened if only the police were allowed to have guns. If the PSU Safety Patrollers are allowed to have guns, why aren't the real police?

@Fidelity, Oh I can make the logical connection on my own. Unfortunately, there was nothing resembling logic in your retort. Again, you should work on that. The people we mostly have to worry about shooting down American civilians are *other* American civilians. When was the last time there was mass genocide on American soil? The fact that you're comparing our cushy existence to the volatile events of the Holocaust is not in any way logical. Come back to Earth.

@fidelity two points here:

1. If some dictator DOES one day rise to power in America, an assault rifle won't mean a damn thing because they have tanks and as you pointed out drones.

2. Meanwhile, back in reality, I'm a lot more worried about some crazy asshole that's been collecting guns "just in case" deciding that his life isn't worth living any more or that my liberal ass is destroying America and I need to die than I am about America suddenly becoming East Timor.

@WhatFreshHell - Well, as seemingly the only person on the Mercury who owns a firearm and practices concealed carry on a daily basis, let me answer some of your questions for you:

Shooting the wrong person is totally unacceptable in any situation, and likely anyone who is going to take a shot is going to be EXTREMELY confident that they can hit their target or else they won’t shoot. This is equally true with police officers and civilian shooters. They're not just going to take cover and blindly start shooting in the direction of gun fire, or just start shooting people who walk by. Use your head man.

Obviously no amount of training can prepare someone for every high stress situation, however, the same techniques that the Police use, I also use in my training. In fact, I’ve trained on the same firing line with police officers and active duty military. There's many techniques to elevate stress during training. Police are not especially well trained to deal with high stress situations to receive their certification, most competent police officers seek additional training above and beyond what is required by their employers. That same level of training is open to civilians as well.

@mcr86 – you should probably ask the Native Americans. Dude, I served in the military for 4 years, the military trains to round up civilians (like you) and put them in concentration camps against their will. They do this training at Camp Rilea (in Oregon), and JBLM (in Olympia, WA). I’ve personally been a part of it, and there’s over 1,000 soldiers in Tigard who are trained to do this. It’s no joke.

If I were at the mall, and if I were to be carrying a permit for a concealed weapon as well as a SIG P-229 .357 and if I were to see somebody shooting people, there would be no need to wait for the police to finally arrive.

@Aestro, My friends and I can teach you how to take out a tank. That's not a problem. (hint: tanks need to refuel)

So, in your second point, which is totally legitimate, how do you prepare yourself for that situation? If you’re a reasonable person, you will probably note that firearms are not going away anytime soon, so it seems practical to learn to defend yourself. Certainly you can’t count upon the state or the police to defend you, as you can ask the two people who died today. There’s only one logical solution to your dilemma, and that is to embrace self-defense yourself. My friends and I can teach you that, too.

2nd press conference up in the link in about 5 minutes
1 shooter, he is dead. 2 innocents passed away. No motives released, age, clothing details
http://youtu.be/ZD-rpcWisLM

Let me guess: The people who like guns will say this is evidence that everyone should be armed. The people who don't like guns will say this is evidence that nobody should be armed. Meanwhile, there's two still warm bodies of innocent people.

Yeah this sucks. Psychos are an endemic problem. Gun control might help, but not solve this problem. I'd also advocate the creation of a more humane, less materialistic and unequal society, and an increase in the supply of sexy time with sexy ladies, if you get my drift.

Seriously, I really think the way the patriarchy has ingrained into women the compulsion to artificially restrict the sex supply is a key driver of these incidents. To put it another way, sluts save lives.

So while there's nothing to be done about the Breviks, a lot of these simply crazy people might have gone in a different direction if they'd had different experiences along the way. I think you know what I mean.

That's why I say: sluts save lives. God bless the soldiers of love.

Jamdox, that's very profound. I'm also a believer in more free love, and more social equality. Though, you certainly must agree that this is also then an economic issue: with more money, the shooter could have paid for services to fulfill their desires.

And just to make sure everyone puts this whole thing in perspective: does anyone want to guess how many people were KILLED BY YOU and your tax dollars today? I'm going to guess that the US military knocked out at least 40, and the CIA probably killed 6, and the State Department probably killed 80. Anyone else want to play this game and offer up a guess?

Congratulations, America.

@ Stu,

Statistically, there are very few victims who were armed. Many car jackings particularly have been thwarted by armed drivers. How many of the victims today were carrying permitted concealed handguns? There most likely were quite a few shoppers at the mall who had guns, but had the good sense to stay clear. Despite all the people who legally carry handguns, there really aren't any Dirty Harrys out there and that's a shame.

@Fidelity
You may very well have more training than most. But unlike the movies where hero guy is able to clearly recognize and shoot bad guy, here is more likely scenario: bad guy starts shooting, good samaritan that is close and sees whats going down pulls out gun and starts shooting at bad guy, meanwhile: 2 or 3 other people with guns who did not see actions of original shooter just see good samaritan shooting bad guy, and mistakenly think good guy is bad guy, and shoot him, on and on...
Also, you are NOT the only one with concealed carry permit, just the only one bragging....

@Think - Hmm...maybe instead of imagining scenarios, you could actually research and investigate actual scenarios and discover that what you're describing has not ever happened.

But what you're describing is, in broad strokes, this specific incident:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Empire_State_Building_shooting

That didn't involve civilians, it involved the Holy and Infallible Police Officers. They shot 9 bystanders. But hey, at least the cops were better than those damn CHL folks, right?

@ ThinkB4Uspeak:

Your reasoning is similar to what happens quite often to people who defend themselves from assaults. Only the witnesses just complain about the victim who defends himself; they rarely ever get physically involved themselves. Most people are just too cowardly. Also, the police prefer to see people hurt, rather than to successfully defend themselves, so they might take the word of the witness who only saw the aggressor get his comeuppance.

@fidelity
I know lots of people that talk down to others like you do here. They also justify the need for assault rifles because they believe the government is coming after them. Thing is, they are the ones who are talking about taking up arms against the government cause thier guy didnt get elected. They also consider themselves to be the "Real Patriots." Demeaning other people to make yourself seem smarter, better, ect. only says alot about you. Use your intelligence to build up, not tear down. There is a way to do it that informs, and earns respect. Want a better America? Be a part of that.

Mass murder? Wow what a fail, someone didn't take the time to look up what "mass murder" is. Only two people and the gunmen were killed, there needs to be at least 4 slain victims to make it mass muder (some may argue 3). Btw here's a concept for you liberal pansies, if everyone in that mall had a firearm and knew had to use it, do you think that guy would've walked into that mall?

Yeah, take that you liberal pansies! LOL

Hey @Christiana, would you really want to go to a public place where "everyone" had a gun? Especially if it was in Clackamas?

The shooter was too early. The Hobbit doesn't open 'til Friday.

Had the gunman been on a revenge shoot out, had he been seeking to target anyone in particularly or was this all indiscriminate shooting? Which augers another question, why today, what had finally snapped in the man’s head that he needed to go out there and inflict such horrific carnage? And then even more strangely if he had come dressed for battle why did he in the end choose to fatally shoot himself?

Or could one even wonder perversely that the man hadn’t necessarily come to kill an entire town but simply to take a whole community and country hostage with his self capitulation, ensuring himself finally a melodramatic exit from a life that increasingly as for many Americans has begun to lose value or meaning and led to some choosing a guns blazing glory self demise?

http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2012/12/gu…

they've been trying gun control for almost a century and it hasn't worked. in fact, the most "controlled" areas are the areas with the highest number of mass killings.

bad guys want maximum effect and minimal resistance. badguys also don't OBEY THE LAW so making more gun laws has only proven to restrict law ABIDING citizens while arming law breakers.

ALSO, gun violence increased 90% in the last year in the UK. guess what isn't working? gun control.

I am waiting for the logical leap from gun advocates to suggest that if that 11 year old from the church hold up earlier this week had been there, none of this would have happened.

@askmefirst thats because people who hate the freedom acknowledged by the 2nd amendment see no difference between criminals and law abiding citizens when it comes to firearms.

Thank you Doug, I lol'ed heartily at the idea that the UK proves gun control doesn't work.

US firearm deaths: 9.00 per 100,000 population, of which 2.98 are homicides.
UK firearm deaths: 0.22 per 100,000 population, of which 0.03 are homicides.

As Stu pointed out, the UK has significantly less gun crime overall, especially violent gun crime, than the US. The UK also historically has had much more stringent gun control laws than the US.

The increase in crimes has to do with how the UK reports gun crime - they also banned "replica" guns and air weapons in public. A breakdown of the statistics from April 2010 to March 2011 shows that of the 11,227 crimes reported, roughly a third (4203) were air weapons. They also treat any replica that has not been confirmed AS a replica to be the real thing, so an airsoft pistol is a real handgun until they confirm it's not.

The NRA and other gun proponents love to use misleading statistics to state the ineffectiveness of gun laws. They love quoting PERCENTAGES from the UK and Australia, but both already have remarkably low gun crime rates, so even minor spikes appear huge. Going from 40 murders to 60 sounds like a relatively small increase against the population size, but is still a 50% increase.

To be clear, while I would love to see all handguns magically vanish, I don't actually support a ban BECAUSE the US has such a strong history of loose gun laws. It would be significantly more difficult to round up guns here than in the UK because there are so many more. But we do need tighter controls and gun nuts need to shut up about arming every citizen or about how they would've prevented every murder if they'd been there.

Doug, the only difference between criminals and law-abiding citizens is one bad decision. So shut the fuck up. Two families lost loved ones yesterday pretty close to all of us, at a mall any one of us could have reasonably had a loved one shopping at.

So just....just fucking save it. This is a tragedy, and we don't need your indignant justifications.

@Astro, "But we do need tighter controls and gun nuts need to shut up about arming every citizen or about how they would've prevented every murder if they'd been there."

How would "tighter controls" prevented this situtation?

@Drunk, get over yourself.

Fidelity....Completely over myself. Still horrified at this tragedy and disgusted by the self-righteous bullshit spewed that absolutely distorts what's important here.

This sort of tragic event always turns into a debate about gun control. The real issue here is mental health and how our society places zero importance on providing opportunities and funding for treating these severely mentally ill people. If those with severe depression, schizophrenia and paranoid delusions continue to be ignored then these sorts of shootings will never end.

@fidelity For starters, in the UK one of the things you have to do before obtaining a gun is prove to the Firearms Enquiry Officer that you have a safe place to store it. Based on what I've read so far, the gun Jacob Roberts used was stolen from someone he knew. There's nothing to say he couldn't have gotten a gun elsewhere, but maybe he wouldn't have.

@Aestro – that’s fair enough. In fact, I don’t think your suggestion of requiring a “safe place” to store a weapon is in contradiction to my understandings of the Right of firearm ownership. In fact, the City of Portland does punish those who fail to secure their firearms if their firearm is stolen and is used in a crime.

In addition, most firearms from large manufactures are sold with a gunlock included in the package; even if a gunlock is not included, they can be purchased for very cheap, or even given for FREE by some law enforcement agencies - so there is virtually no reason that a firearm owner cannot secure their weapon in such a way that it is prevented from firing.

Though, I personally don’t think this type of policy would make much of a difference in this case, nor would it effect the behavior of most gun owners. Imagine yourself in a gun owner’s shoes: you own a weapon to protect loved ones, so rationally you want that weapon to be “at-the-ready” in case you need it, you likely would not want to open a gun safe or otherwise delay your readiness of your weapon. So, even if such a policy (where as a burden of proof by the owner to demonstrate security) were to become law, I don’t think it would dissuade the actual habits of firearm owners.

@Doug....Ok smart guy. Pop quiz. To which group does George Zimmerman belong?

Also, posting detailed descriptions of how to unjam an AR in the comments section can typically be regrded as an indicator of a small penis.....Aaaaah, just joking fidelity, I'm sure you were one of the best cooks to ever have serve in our armed forces.