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If you believe that a fetus is a human life, then it follows that you would define the taking of such life as murder. More specifically, it would be aggravated first degree murder in that it would always be premeditated and the woman would pay someone else (a doctor) to help her carry it out.
The sentence for aggravated first degree murder in Oregon is life in prison or the death penalty. Do you believe that women who receive abortions should be put in prison for the rest of their life? Would you be comfortable with them being put to death by the state? Would you be comfortable with any sentence? Thirty years in prison for getting an abortion? Twenty? Ten? How would you decide how we punish women who get abortions? There has to be some punishment, otherwise outlawing abortion is meaningless.
If you're okay with locking up (and possibly executing) women who receive abortions, then congratulations, you have a philosophically consistent moral system. I deeply disagree with you and find you morally repugnant, but you're consistent.
If your answer is "no," though, (and I'm guessing you don't want to give abortion-getters the same treatment as murderers- just a hunch) then you're in a more complicated position. You're uncomfortable with abortion, sure, and don't want it to happen, but also don't want to have the legal consequences of making it illegal (i.e., jailing or executing women who have the procedure) carried out.
If that is the case, you have to come to grips with the fact that the law and that which is personally morally satisfying are often necessarily the same thing. Actions should only be illegal if we, as a society, are comfortable with exacting punishment on those individuals who perform such actions. If you're not in a position where you're okay punishing women who get abortions, then you should not back any policy that would make abortion illegal.
As an atheist, I'm guessing you're fairly rational. You probably just don't want people to get abortions, or restrict access. However, if you're not willing to follow through with the full policy implications of your beliefs, then congratulations, you're reluctantly pro-choice.
First of all, no infant outside the womb can survive by itself, and basically you're incapable of taking care of yourself in any meaningful manner in our society until you're well into your teens. So you don't even make a logical statement.
Then, you seem to think this somehow plays into the argument over personhood, which is somewhat silly as it presumes any of us has the right to determine another being's worth in the first place. You're a person if you were procreated as a homo sapien, period.
Are you a person at conception? Three months into a pregnancy? Eight months? Five minutes after you are born? When you finish law school?
Let's get real, even before Roe V. Wade our society never placed a huge premium on fetal rights, which are actually the outgrowth of sonograms and ultrasounds that allowed people to finally see what was really going on inside the womb. Yet at the same time this happened, abortion rights advocates had their greatest victories. So much for science trumping emotion. We saw the fetus, went "isn't that cool?!" and proceeded to abort it. Indeed, to this day, despite all the evidence that a fetus is, or is at least on its way, to becoming a person, it still has very limited rights until it is born (women are not allowed to snort cocaine and damage their feti anymore, but it's still happening and how many women do you know have gone to jail for that?).
Personally, as per abortion, I would draw the line at three months into a pregnancy as there are (hotly disputed) studies indicating the fetus at that point might feel pain during an abortion. If we must have later term abortions, the decent thing to do during a would be to administer anesthesia in a manner ensuring the fetus does not suffer, but militant pro-choicers generally oppose even that because it might undermine their position that the fetus is a "product of pregnancy" and we already know what happens to other products in our society.
The truth is abortion will exist as long as men and women have irresponsible sex and the fetus will always be vulnerable because it's smaller than us, and everywhere in the world, the small always are the victims of the big. That doesn't mean sometimes the big don't feel bad about what they're doing -- certainly women often don't feel good about an abortion, and fewer still do it because it's "convenient" -- but they're still essentially using the logic of the strong vs. the weak. Men use it when they knock up women and abandon them, so why shouldn't women use it when they have abortions? It's the ability to inflict such damage on each other that makes us "persons"!
However, i find it so sad that you feel that you have the right to your own heart's values, yet you would vote to deny other's that right. i also believe that i have the right to decide when consciousness begins. And i have the right to end that life within my womb. i do believe in consciousness at inception. And i have chosen to end that consciousness, that life, after i was raped. i have, however, made my peace with that soul. That is MY spiritual "choice", about MY life & MY body.
i respect your beliefs. i respect your conviction. i cannot, however, respect the attempt to impose YOUR belief on my body. Follow your heart's path, but please respect my need to follow my own.
That's some poetic justice!
But, i don't know of many americans who actually kill the animals that they eat. And i think that you missed the point of vulnerable, voiceless creatures being slaughtered....oh, wait.
You see, this woman admits herself that she is alone - it's in her title post, for crying out loud. That makes her miserable by definition.
And she's clearly self-loathing b/c she also admits to being anti-choice. That's pretty much the same as a Black person who's anti-emancipation, or a Gay who's against equal marriage rights.
So i'm in fact BETTER than her b/c:
A) I'm pro-choice.
B) I'm not miserable.
C) I'm not self-loathing.
D) I'm not a coward b/c i stand right by my ideals and all MY friends know where i stand.
I hope i've made myself clear.
Every post regarding women & children, by you, is hating on, not only women, but fucking children, as well! How great that you don't dislike yourself. But what cost are you to your/our community? You do pass judgement, silently, on many of "our"friends". You have made it "clear" that you respect Anton LaVey. Fucking really? Are you a fan of Rex too? If so, then why be here. You're no Frater Perdurabo, you have no Love, only a small mans will. Wake the fuck up.
Be that as it may, I can not think of a reason to make abortion illegal, because of the law of unintended consequences. people are still going to get abortions. we might as well make it so that the fetus or the mom goes through as little pain as possible.
You know what I think? I think know one really LIKES getting an abortion. I think most people see it as a necessary alternative to raising a baby they cant or don't want to care for, but its not like they enjoy getting one.
I think most people would rather not get pregnant in the first place. But conventional contraception for some reason seems not to be working. So here is my solution to the problem. Instead of taking a pill to not get pregnant, do the reverse. At birth, inject babies with a vaccine thingies that prevents the reproductive system from working. now the only way to get pregnant is to take a pill designed to repress the vaccine for a couple of hours or something. essentially you take the pill and you are fertile again.
Now, if this where to be put into effect, the only way someone could get pregnant is if they want to. Abortion would be complete unnecessary except for when the mothers life is in danger, or some sick fuck takes that pill and rapes someone who has also taken the pill. but by and large it will be unnecessary. And it will help with the population boom as well, I think.
i have another solution, to yours...how about human beings take responsibility for the love that they make & the babies that are born from that? Too cheesy? Fuck it. Kill 'Em All.
@29 BWAHAHAHAHAHA! I LOVED THAT EPISODE!
However, please don't ever take it that i am some american who thinks that starving children should feed themselves or die. That is NOT me. That is Damosa.
i am not so different from you, friend. The Norwegian dig was from some black metal Opeth infestation. Where are you?
Bullshit you punkass, just scroll back about........the last 3 years and one can find you trolling here all over again you miserable fuck.
D) I'm not a coward.
Again, bullshit. Tried to take you up on your "bring it" threat to no avail.
So, a quick recap: Damosa is a MISERABLE liar and a bad one at that.
.
Clearly you both are extremely ignorant and don't really know much about anything. #32 in particular hardly even deserves a response.
Kalikill, if you might dismount from that high horse of yours and be quiet for once, i'll [further] explain something to you.
I'm very much PRO-CHOICE, yes. But that doesn't mean that i hold to this no-liberal world view that people ought NOT be held responsible for their actions and how those actions may impact others around them. Contrary to what most people may think, NOONE on Earth has a "right" to procreate. Noone has a "right" to have children. Breeding in of itself is not an internationally recognized human right. And to be quite fucking frank, not EVERYONE who wants kids SHOULD have them. IA is a great example, so her barrenness is a blessing for the rest of us.
I'm guessing this is going right over your head - let's see if i can make this abit more simple for you.
When you were once a little brat yourself and your parents denied you from having every single doll you wanted, kept you from eating everything you wanted, and stopped you from endless consumption, it WASN'T b/c your parents were eeevil fascists who constantly cracked down on your personal autonomy (you do know what that word means, right?). It was b/c as your parents, they kinda gave a damn about you and didn't want you to (in effect) kill yourself before you were mature enough to make your own decisions. And b/c YOUR awful choices would've have and impact on others around you and through-out your life.
The same basic concept applies to people who want to selfishly breed for no other reason other than "they want kids". THEIR needless want comes at huge expense - to themselves, to other people, and to the environment and Earth. This isn't about "denying choice' to anyone - it's about holding people RESPONSIBLE for their actions.
Jesus woman, YOU were at Occupy too, supposedly. You're suppose to already understand this shit.
Bullshit you punkass, just scroll back about........the last 3 years and one can find you trolling here all over again you miserable fuck.
D) I'm not a coward.
Again, bullshit. Tried to take you up on your "bring it" threat to no avail.
So, a quick recap: Damosa is a MISERABLE liar and a bad one at that.
.
Who wants a warm ba-ba?
Hey dummy, you posted this already. #32. Or did you forget that soon?
I sent it once. I know you would LOVE to blame me for the ineptness of the mercury.
@ #37, don't blame the Merc. b/c you're soo daft that you make the same inane, insipid comment TWICE without even realizing it. Next time, you should THINK before posting. That way, you might not look [as] foolish.
Btw- why is it that you wear a costume?
Please. I have had my Masters Degree long before you could even talk.
You see, that's hilarious to me.
You know NOTHING about me and I KNOW much about you.
Wise up you punk, I know what YOU look like also....
it's funny and all, but please don't ruin an interesting thread by doing the same thing you do every thread. save it for the boring stuff.
IA, i'm with you. i'm a liberal, free-thinking individual, and I happen to think abortion is wrong. you wouldn't believe how many "open-minded" people call me a right-wing nutbag for having this opinion.
However, if the war on drugs has taught me anything, it's that making something illegal doesn't stop it from happening, it only creates more problems. So even tho I personally am opposed to abortion, I think it should remain legal and safe, before we create some crazy border crisis with canada (relax people, its a joke)
What struck me about the conversation: some pro-choice folks don't seem to get that pro-life people think this is one area where it's not just another choice, so it would be wrong to respect a differing viewpoint. So the "argument from opinion" fails because the pro-lifer can come back with "but it's just your opinion that this is just my opinion and I should respect others' opinions and hence choices" since this uses the same logic, and the pro-lifer can continue, "so you should respect my choice to not respect the right of others to choose." I could write this better, but no.
tl;dr: arguments from relativism are hella weak.
Beyond that I see a lot of weird counterfactuals, and basically nobody agreeing with Anonymous that it sucks that her friends would freak if they knew she was pro-life. Which it does. Instead everybody is like "Y U NO PROCHOICE???"
I mean really, one's opinion on this topic is almost entirely visceral, and so the logic is post-hoc. The strongest pro-choice arguments come from the practical aspects of having unwanted children, while the strong pro-life arguments come from the abstract aspects of life and personhood.
I'd also note that this is a shining example of how my fellow leftists aren't quite as tolerant and open-minded as they like to fancy themselves!
To give a little firmer background of the "life" issue: life does not begin at conception. Anyone who tells you that is ignorant. Nor does life begin at birth or at any other time. Life began once, about 4 billion years ago, and has continued in a chain unbroken since then, reproducing, mutating and evolving. So from a scientific viewpoint, it's just as valid to say "Humans are the way sperm and eggs reproduce themselves" as the converse! Pretty trippy, riiiiiight? But think about it, all those little swimmers--THEY'RE ALIVE!
As for personhood, you got me. But I do sympathize with the pro-lifers because it seems like so many parents view their children as some kind of property, and I loathe that attitude with my whole being. CHILDREN DO NOT BELONG TO THEIR PARENTS. So I really do not believe that a woman has a right to kill a fetus.
But I also hate poverty and all the evils that come with it. I believe that war is sometimes justified, and so believe that a policy allowing abortion, legalized war on children, unborn children unintentionally threatening to impoverish and reduce many a country to chaos, may be justified. Plus I come from a rabidly pro-choice home, so I naturally cringe when I see people who should abort keep the bey-bee.
Ooh, look where I am now: "A woman doesn't have the right to kill a fetus, but sometimes she has the duty." I love it! And a provocatively pseudo-sexist one: "Abortion turns a woman into a soldier." Nice.
Anyway, I don't think the abortion issue has arguments that can convince someone on either side, even if they're reasonable. That's not to say that one side or another isn't truly right on some ideal plane, but I don't see it. Folks should really remember that, since forgetting it is the sort of thing that gets Bushes elected.
tl;dr: friendships with selective relativism can be hella strong.
Anon should try to find friends who understand that.
Man, if you want to put a hanger thru your pussy and push that 8 month fetus baby out do it, who is stoping you?
I found out in my PHD that the highest grades that got the students not necessarily meant that they were held in high stems until like they did something tangible. So what's the point? Go to North Korea and try to make a living being an abstract painter. I learned that while talking to morons who got back from Irak some 4 years ago, when they told me they couldn't wait to get back. Maybe thats all they know, it runs in the family, who the fuck knows.
And thats where your tax money is going like it or not. We will bring all those corporations down and make em pay what they have done stopping progress in the last 100, 200 years? Am I about right? And all of this for a stupid Photoshop pro upgrade wich costs me about 800 bucks.
But what the hell, I earn a 6 figure a year, so the hell to all of you, right? So it means am very well educated as well. Logical.
"IA, i'm with you. i'm a liberal, free-thinking individual, and I happen to think abortion is wrong. you wouldn't believe how many "open-minded" people call me a right-wing nutbag for having this opinion."
Well OBVIOUSLY you're NOT a 'liberal free-thinking individual' if you're anti-choice! You sound more like one of these christian hypocrites who CLAIMS to be "open-minded", yet behaves the opposite way.
If you're against a woman's right to have an abortion, that kinda makes you a right-wing nutbag, yeah.
However, if that ONE THING were over-turning Roe v. Wade and relegating women to 2nd class citizens, then yeah - that makes you a right-wing nutbag.
It's all about CONSISTENCY!
http://gifsoup.com/view1/3310130/ricky-lau…
I think this is about the rights of their unborn children. Some people say those unborn children have no rights, because they haven't been born yet. I get it. I just disagree.
Murdering a pregnant women counts as a double homocide. Smoking while pregnant is wrong because it damages the unborn child. That unborn child is a living thing. Saying that a woman has the right to terminate the life of that thing is a bold and controversial statement.
If you read my initial comment, you will see that I don't hold a hard-core right wing opinion that says "all abortion should be illegal!" But I also don't think that it's a fundamental right to kill your unborn child.
And you can call me a right-wing nutbag. It's cool. Just know that right wing nutbags call me a left-wing nutbag. When I'm pissing off both sides, that is called being open-minded and free thinking. Me and Obama are cool like that
However, if that ONE THING were over-turning Roe v. Wade and relegating women to 2nd class citizens, then yeah - that makes you a right-wing nutbag.
It's all about CONSISTENCY!--
What you think you're building, an obelisk? its not a system of beliefs what you have, dadadaa, its just an infantile illusion and you know it, and yet you embrace it, to keep you safe and you basically delude yourself knowing it's a big lie.
-with the free market or having a strong military (but not an global imperial force), than sure - you'd still be cool. -
Oh, alright, a shit tons of military instead of shitloads of military, and the drafter says you'd still be cool. You are drafting exactly for a game of Parchis. Your hips must be soooo last year by now. You'd still be cool, how you said it, its so sad, so sad. I dont know if you are trying to convince yourself or who you imaginably are talking to.
DaDaA, shutthefuckup.
Did you opened a box of something there?
So by YOUR twisted logic, do you agree that CANCER CELLS are autonomous organisms with THEIR OWN special Rights?
Part of the point of the pro-choice movement is that we women get to decide what is right for us. We define, individually, what our experience is, what our spiritual beliefs are & how we choose to experience our own bodies. To have a MAN call pregnancy a cancer is no better than what the other side is saying. i'm trying to be respectful, but there seems to be a gap in your logic.
Women's rights is all about our being empowered, legally, socially & personally to define our experience as women. Please, do not presume to do that for us. It only serves to disempower & to further erode the voice that we are striving to create for ourselves. i would never even think to tell you what your perspective as a black man growing up in Georgia is. i can empathize, but i cannot define that experience for you. And while i may not agree with this woman's perspective, she is a woman who deserves a voice. Just like we all do. And i respect her voice, if not her beliefs.
i was speaking specifically to Damosa because, despite everything, he does seem willing to see another perspective ( when he isn't being attacked ) & i was trying to show him how i, as a woman felt having my womb, my sexuality & my body being the playground for bullies in this country. Everyone is allowed a voice. i just think that women's voices should be heard & respected when it comes to women's bodies & experiences. Not to say that men can't weigh in, just please try to have some respect. Anyways, i wasn't trying to be disrespectful to anyone. Peace.
I admit, my "voice" in this debate is partially selfish. Obviously, CHRISTIANS are the ones who keep forcing this issue. And since i hate christians more than anything else on Earth, my own defense of abortion has been largely reflexive. Doesn't mean i don't genuinely believe in free choice.
I was listening to Talk of the Nation on NPR last week, and the discussion was on Roe vs. Wade. There were two guests on - one man and one woman. The woman was a spokesperson for a national Pro-Choice group. The man was some shithead "pro-life" litigator.
The show took 4 callers - 3 guys, one woman. The 3 guys were all shithead christian "lifers", the female caller was the only one in favor of choice.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/talk/2012/01/12/1…
There use to be alot of these same shitheads out in front of the newer PP building on MLK, too, harassing people. Not so much anymore, though. Funny note - even though there's a Muslim center just one block down from that PP, i never saw any Muslims protesting out there. Not even during the building's grand opening in Feb. 2010. Not a single one. 40 - 50 christians, though.