'with his dick out'
There's a term for that, Public Indecency, and it's often accompanied by a sex offender label.

@ Dave Bow, This article was like jiggling a loose tooth - well done.

@ Crown, I believe the term for your comment is player hating.

Moral: If you ever find yourself regretting your life decisions, look around - are you in a club, or considering going to a club? If you can answer no to both at almost all times, you're probably doing something right.

These guys are imbeciles. May I ask why is this relevant to any reader with a brain, hoping the answer wouldn't be some disingenuous BS about "human interest"?

Why was this article even written? "Pickup artists" aren't just some skeezy niche community; a LOT of straight guys legitimately think of women as manipulable, sub-human objects of desire. We don't need those voices in the Mercury. They have the airwaves everywhere else. How disgusting.

And yes, of course I get that the author (and illustrator) know that these people are imeciles, so that's part of the point, if there is a point. But still, why? Isn't it like people who tune in to Jersey Shore (etc.) to feel superior?

All I can say is..Wow. I would have more to say, but unfortunately I'm a stupid women. Ah, why can't my 24th birthday come sooner?!

whaaaa? It's easy to pick up ladies at Gypsy? Will they start putting jelly on toast now too? my my.
actually, if a girl is brave enough to fair Gypsy or Dixie, they're into randoms.. and they're probably into randoms because dudes here are lazy.

"Women get less attractive as they age. Men don't. Women have an expiration date." Eat a dick Vallejo. Maybe the women you know don't know how to take care of themselves. Women can age just as beautifully as men. What an ass.

This is about what I expected from the Merc on this topic. The real bulk of guys who read material like this are legitimately shy and don't understand how meeting women and having relationships works. Sure, there are "players" who disrespect and break hearts, but they don't need a manual. Some of us do--I was an only child raised by a single mom, and have been tragically single most of my adult life. If I'd learned some of this earlier in life, I could have avoided some major lost years from addiction... gained from attempting to use alcohol to limber up and be social.

Oh well... soberish these days and trying to figure women out is secondary to figuring my own shit out.

By the way, "one-itis" doesn't refer to a relationship, but the obsession over one individual: not moving on to other fish in the sea. FYI, for PUA in PDX.

I hope this douche has fun dying alone.

It's blowing my mind that this is actually a cohesive community of some sort.

For the people saying "how dare you judge these people who have trouble meeting people:" There is a wide, wide chasm between "learning how to be better at approaching women," and "unlocking The Secret to fucking club skanks next to a dumpster."

No one would have a problem with this if these people didn't couch their insecurity, intimidation and confusion in such childishly sexist terms and techniques.


Also: This is destined to be the best thread ever.

I can't believe a story that figures "dicks out in public" and a woman alone in the dark---- is considered success. That sounds scary. Who are these insensitive jerks and how do I avoid them with my 30-something lessening beauty?

So these PUA workshops are just Toastmasters for horny dudes? That's what it seems like.

I know I don't have to approve or read it, Captain Obvious, I was merely asking what the point was. Some stories, like the recent "Bartender Chronicles" can be interesting now and then, but because there's a constant media barrage of stories that amount to "Hey look, shallow, stupid people behaving badly!" I would say it's long since become rather cynical. And thanks for coming through with the "it's human interest" defense as I predicted. I guess the endless cable shows that repetitively document people's bad habits, dysfunction, and neuroses are also just human interest for our enlightenment.

Well if this article helps get more dicks out in public and more trashy pussy off the street and into the safety of a '72 station wagon, then that leaves more high-class ass roaming about for the rest of us.

Thank you for writing this. I had no idea this subculture existed until I was already in love with someone who I later learned was not just a member of this community, but considered a leader within it. It is a community based upon exploitation, and it isn't just about getting women to have sex with you. The tactics are sociopathic - you learn to exploit people to get what you want without conscience or consequence. My ex is quite the rising star in Seattle. He, quite simply put, knows how to get what he wants.

It is hard to silently witness. I don't have anything to be ashamed of, but somehow, I'm forced to keep his secret (outing him would only serve to make me look like a bitter ex).

It is impossible to convey how psychologically abusive and manipulative The Game is. You think it couldn't possibly work on you, right? I mean, you are a strong person who is a great judge of character and can smell a douchebag a mile away. Right? Wrong. It is mind-bending voodoo.

Awareness is the best defense. Thank you very much for raising it.

The kind of behavior that PUA’s embrace seems to be rooted in all kinds of interesting elements of psychology --- attachment theory for one --- that describes a side of the human experience that some people have that revolves around a lack of confidence, fear of intimacy and compassion deficiencies. The heartbreaking thing about the formalized devaluing of self/others that is exhibited in the concept of the PUA’s is that this is a fairly begin expression of disregard and lack of empathy. The extreme case of devaluing of another human’s rights to respect in terms of not being harmed in body or mind can be seen here: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/africans-albini…. A profound example of disregard but I believe it comes from the same source of damaged psychology that allows a PUA to go out and manipulate another person into an emotional and physical attachment to himself that he himself can’t feel, doesn’t honor or have anyway of benefiting from. The PUA gains nothing of lasting value from it. They gives hurt, disrespect and confusion in return. There is a saying that I attempt to live my own life by; ‘Do what you will, harm no one.’ The PUA says they are ‘doing what they will.’ Many claim all men “are like this (i.e. non-monogamous, detached and poly-amorous).” By ‘doing what they will’ they hurt others (including, I believe, themselves). They are not contributing to equality. They are not learning. They are not developing meaningful, respectful or authentic relationships with others. They are not enriching their own lives or the lives of others…And that’s an empty (and frankly, in my opinion, shameful) way to lead one’s life.

Everyone who's hating on the fact that this article was written:

Let's not confuse publicity with adulation. Just because the article is about PUA's doesn't mean that some sort of blanket apologisimo is being given for their actions.

There seems to be this myopia in place now that says if a news outlet talks about it, they're glorifying it. Yes, what IS journalism except to hold a mirror up to things, things we sometimes don't want to see?

So sure, you can decry the lifestyle the article talks about. But if you're getting all up in the Merc's grill for even publishing the story, you've either already closed your mind to the world around you, or you're a Fox News viewer. Oh wait, that's the same thing.

I totally agree with you, IrishWish. Ignorance might be bliss for some...until they have the misfortune of crossing paths with someone who is counting on it.

First sign you are an utter clownboat and should be on a pro-eugenics PSA: you speak entirely in acronyms and abbreviations.

anonimouse, you've given me a different perspective on all this than what I got from the article. I didn't read about much "mind-bending voodoo" or really subtle manipulation that would work on women who are genuinely good judges of character. I read about extremely obvious fast-mover pickup tactics that work on women who don't need much provocation to do too much to quickly, whether it's giving out their number almost immediately or having sex in public with someone they just met, possibly because they're too drunk to know what's going on. I'm not necessarily saying this is generally what happens with these PUA people, just that this was the impression I got from the article, which is why I don't quite see how it serves as much of a warning against the kind of blatant douchebaggery described within it.

I actually met that guy "Mystery" a couple of times after his show "the Pickup Artist" was on, man, that guy was weird. Not in a unique, quirky sort of way, but in a creepy, almost somewhere on the autistic spectrum way. In meetings about his career and business he was acting like one of those dogst that just wants to chase a tennis ball, except with women. If a woman walked across the street outside the office we were in, he'd stop listening to the talk we were having that dealt with money and his career and jump up and stair out the window. Then he just couldn't relate in a social setting. Out for dinner/drinks, he couldn't make or be interested in a conversation, and never looked anybody in our group in the eye. I mean we weren't trying to become best friends, just get through a dinner with a group of people that were going to be working together.

My guess is that if you interacted with any of these "artists" you'd know something was truly wrong with their personalities and their abilities to connect with someone.

wearenotimpressed - RIGHT ON.

Geyser - you're right that I make a different point than that of this article. I ponder this topic as little as possible these days. However, after a friend sent this article to me, I felt compelled to say "Thank you for writing this" because as far as I'm concerned, if this article does nothing more than raise awareness that the seduction community exists, it has proven its worth in type.

I sure wish I'd known about it earlier. Would've made for a much happier year of my life.

p.s. Yes, some PUAs are decent shy guys (and sometimes, though much less frequently, gals) who respond to the lure of "we'll teach you confidence and improve your hit rate." They are decent human beings that balance the PUA tactics (which are basically sociopathic ones) against their decency, values, and sense of morality. They tend to get out of this scene once they realize they're surrounded by douchebags, not gurus. But I'm pretty sure there's a chapter in the rule book called "What to do when she finds out you're a PUA." He will always claim to be this guy.

Hold on, you mean this shit actually works? I thought the Merc was just trolling us noob readers...

Haha, I went to the PDXLair site out of curiosity and apparently they're really happy about this article and the publicity, attention, and likely business that will come from it. Of course it makes sense that, to him, it probably seems like he comes across well in the entire article. I'm sure he completely believes in all the crap he's spouting.

...For example, a slogan from the site: "Building Better Men...To Benefit Women" A real selfless humanitarian in our midst!
Repeated use of the words "community" and "gentlemen" constitute a complete mockery of these words. It's a not a community, and you're not gentlemen, you're a bunch of cads. Just because Bill Clinton was one of you doesn't bring any honor to your ranks.
Could I talk any of you into a vasectomy, though?

Hi,

Vince here.

I feel obligated to chime in. (Yes, this is the real me, Vince Vallejo -- not an imposter, and certainly not a douche bag:)

First of all, while I applaud Dave Bow for his hard work on this story, I feel several things are represented out of context.

I will admit, after reading this story I feel a bit misrepresented.

I'm actually beginning to feel a bit like Michael Jackson; it's amazing how things can be misunderstood, misrepresented, and otherwise misinterpreted when delivered in "choice" snippets" and not put into proper context.

Understand: Dave had a job to do: to tell an interesting story. And that he did.

But I would like to add a little...

First of all: I despise the words pick-up artist, and seduction, and the like. they're too much like 'player' and imply a person who is out merely for sex, exploitation, and self-interest. Furthermore, I strongly disagree with much of what the so-called pickup artists teach: canned lines, routines, and bedding women (for "game").

That is not what I am about and that is not what I teach.

Most of the men who come to me have no intention of sleeping with multiple women for the sake of "sleeping with women". They do not want to manipulate women. If anything, they are lonely souls on a journey of self-improvement and self-discovery.

Some of these men have never had so much as a kiss. Imagine that (for some of you it might be difficult). But imagine a life so lonely, so utterly hopeless (when it comes to relationships), that you can not even IMAGINE what it would be like to kiss another human being.

What kind of hell would that be?

Most men, when asked candidly, would say that they just want to be in a happy relationship with a wonderful partner -- to share in life's pleasures and experience a sense of divine unity with someone who completes them.

And I am no exception.

For a man who is determined to improve this aspect of his life, sometimes this involves talking to multiple women. Sometimes this involves dating multiple women. Sometimes this involves flirting. Why? Because, with each interaction, we, as men, learn something. We improve. We make new distinctions.

Furthermore, it shows us what kind of women are out there -- the more interactions we have, the better suited we are to decide which one is 'the one', rather than settling on whoever comes along...and ending up ultimately unhappy.

You ever wonder why divorce rates are so high?

I tend to think of PDXLair as a group of guys who are fascinated by women, who adore women, and who will give to a special women the kinds of feelings, experiences, and fulfillment that she has never experienced before. He will rivet her physically, emotionally, and spiritually.

We are a group of guys who want the most out of life, and we are dedicated to constant and never ending improvement in all aspects of our lives -- yes, our relationship(s) included.

We love women; therefore we are loved by women. We relish their beauty and strive to understand them. There is nothing immoral, dishonest, or maligned about that. And when we truly relate to a women on a deeper level, she will sense that. She will become free to let her inner-beauty shine, just like when she was young and carefree -- before the crushing weight of adulthood and "reality" came crashing down upon her.

We do not take from women...

...we share with them.

It's not about what we can get; but what we can share -- after all, that is the definition of a healthy relationship.

So let's forever wipe the word pickup artist, player, etc. from our vocabulary.

That is not not who we are -- at least the group I associate myself with. I don't consider myself a "Pick-up" artist. What an terrible title.

The closest thing that I can come up with is that I am a romantic (but not hopeless!).

Maybe I am a "romance artist."

It's true, many people outside "our circle" don't understand what we do.

Maybe it should be one of my missions to change that.



SOME SPECIAL NOTES:

1. I have never been to Chinatown, except maybe just passing through after taking a wrong turn. Chinatown seems to be a common locale in this story. I hate Chinatown, and it's the last place I'd go if I was looking for a QUALITY women.

2. QUOTE: "I ask Vallejo if treating courtship like a strategy game is disingenuous. Meeting a girl is like a job interview, he says. You're not becoming a different you by putting on a suit and tie, "You're just bringing out the best version of you for that situation."

I think my original meaning is lost in this paragraph.

For clarification: meeting women is NOT like a job interview, and should not be treated like a job interview. Meeting and dating women should be fun -- for everyone involved. In fact, if you treated dating like a job interview, it would be extremely boring for both parties. Not to mention, severely unattractive. Who want's to play 21 questions?

My original implication was that, like a job interview, every interaction requires that you bring out certain positive aspects of yourself. You would not act like you were in a nightclub environment while working in the office would you?

It is not necessary for a man to change himself, his personality, etc. when meeting and attracting women. But it is necessary for him to bring out the best parts of himself for a given social interaction.

In other words: learning game (I hate that word) is not about becoming a new you, it's about becoming the best you.

3. QUOTE: "After this introduction it's time for some lessons in "inner game." Because all women are different, Vallejo stresses, the way you hold yourself is more important than what you say. The seductive power of confidence is "like making money while you sleep."

Now me saying making money while you sleep when referring to women just sounds plain wrong...and evil. Like I am objectifying women. Especially when the rest of the preceding lesson isn't here to support it.

Put more eloquently: when a man has a strong inner-game (that is, he's confident, comfortable in his own skin, and has a generally positive self-image), he will naturally attract more women to him because there will be something "different" and more alluring about him than a man who is still dealing with insecurities aka "mommy issues". When a man has a strong inner-game, so to speak, women will be naturally drawn to him, so he doesn't have to work so hard on cheesy lines, playing manipulative games, and otherwise not being himself. In other words, having a strong inner-frame allows a man to do just that: TO BE HIMSELF. There is no manipulation in that.

I want all my students to learn how to:

a. Be themselves
b. Become more attractive to women (while still being true to themselves.)

When a man has a strong inner-game, it is like making money while he sleeps, i.e.: women will seek him out, and that means he will not have to spend unnecessary time chasing them.


4. QUOTE: "Vallejo encourages us not to get entangled with younger girls. "There comes a certain point—I hate to say this—where women actually get mature. They actually get real. Around 24 to 30 years old." Age is not a disadvantage, he insists. "Women get less attractive as they age. Men don't. Women have an expiration date. Just know: 'As hot as you are now, you won't be forever, whereas I will get better with time.'

Let me clarify: the above was in response to a student who felt he was unattractive because of his age (mid-fifties). He thought he was to old to meet women.

I told him this was a limiting belief.

Whereas a woman's attractiveness is generally based on a physical level (don't believe me, ask any man, and he'll tell you the same) a mans attractiveness is based primarily on personality, sense of humor, leadership, and strong character. Now there are exceptions (Johnny Depp, anyone?) but, GENERALLY, this is a universal truth.

So I told the man that his age was not nearly as limiting a factor for us, as men, as it is with women.

Generally speaking, to the common man, women begin to loose attractiveness sometime in their 30's. While older men are often considered more attractive (Shawn Connery?).

I told him a woman's "expiration date" happens long before a man's, and that he should not let his age deter him.

Now, there are plenty of beautiful older women...so take a moment, ladies, and pull the collective panties out of your asses...and realize that I am speaking in GENERAL TERMS.

There are, of course, exceptions to every rule. There are some strikingly gorgeous, intelligent, quality women who also happen to be 40+.

...................................................................................................................................

I could go on and on -- clarifying this story, breaking it down, putting things in the proper context, etc. But it's a waste of time. You either understand what I am saying...

...or you don't.

Simple as that.

Yes, I'll admit, my ideas, when taken in "choice snippets" (as presented this story), can paint a rather disturbing and vulgar picture of what I do and teach.

I suspect that if I was an one of you reading this from an outside perspective, I would think most of it is disgusting, disrespectful, and unsavory to say the least.

But know that there is always more to every story.

I feel so bad for celebrities.

Especially Michael Jackson.

www.pdxlair.com

www.meetup.com/pdxlair

All mention of this article on the PDXLair just disappeared. I guess he wasn't too happy about it after all.

I'm sorry I ever doubted that this story should have been run. This has turned out to be priceless, including the above backpedaling, spin, and correct branding with just the right words.

Vince: if you're so against sex-as-conquest, why does your site promise to help people who want to "have relations with as many new women as possible"?

I think many portland women abandon their femininity because its not "cool" to dress attractively or appear at all traditional (obviously heterosexual). So what happens is they get even less interaction and attention from the only guys who might be interested (hetero guys in all likelihood), they turn bitter and spiteful at an early age, probably get fatter than they should and then end up dating some guy who is totally wrong, just because he lives next door or has tourettes and talks a lot to anybody, including random fat chicks. Its sad.

UPDATE: I'm not really sure how it happened y'all, but Vince Vallejo just boned me next to a dumpster.

EVERYONE STOP TALKING BAD ABOUT HIM I LOVE HIM.

My site promises to help men become more attractive to women.

Understand?

The techniques are universal, son.

If a man wants to sleep with 100 women, can my techniques help him to achieve that goal?

Yes.

If a man wants a happy, intimate, relationship with one special woman can I help him achieve that goal?

Again, the answer is yes.

If a man wants to have sex with a woman in 30 minutes can my techniques help him achieve that?

A big-fat yes.

But, seduction (hate that word) is like magic. Some of it's good, and some of it's bad -- like black magic. Ever hear of the dark side of the force? Nah, you seem like more a Star Trek kind of guy.

Listen, I don't necessarily agree with how everyone will use my material, but I am saying I can teach you how to become more attractive to women -- whatever your goal.

Shitty and want to get better? I can help.

Excellent and want an extra edge? I can help.

For most men, the whole sleeping with multiple women "thing" is a phase that passes once they discover life and who they really are.

I cant fault the men who just want to sleep with women; I was one of them once. It's something they simply have to grow out of.

Remember how I said most women don't mature until 24-30? Well, most men don't mature till 30-40, yourself included.

Dope, dude. I've never seen such a seamless blend of trolling and marketing copy.

EWWW.....RANDOM FAT CHICKS. Ugh. I mean...fat is just so...FAT. And on a chick? Colonel Panic should probably set all the fat chicks on fire.

Wow, Vince. First of all, thanks for being the subject of this article and for commenting. I hope the experience is as illuminating for you, personally, as it is for the unsuspecting readership. Your response is an expected blend of PUA teachings:

1) opportunistic marketing
2) how to justify anything that doesn't suit your personal agenda and deny taking personal responsibility for the consequences of your actions (and the actions of those you mentor-for-pay).

Thank you for acknowledging the "black magic" strength of these predatory teachings in the wrong hands. But I would like to suggest that as a teacher of them, you have a moral responsibility to screen for the sociopathic-leaning--those that would use them to cause lasting psychological and emotional trauma to otherwise healthy, happy people--prior to taking their money and sending them out into the world unto a largely well-meaning and unsuspecting public.

The thing is Vince, you "gurus" are either preying on haplessly unhappy and insecure men, or you are arming the sociopathic-leaning with techniques capable of preying upon and FUCKING GOOD PEOPLE UP (not just fucking them). Whether direct or indirect, what you do makes you a predator.

This is when you turn to the members only discussion thread to affirm that you're a good guy at heart--just misunderstood and complicated is all--and how you're just helping other men take control of their lives. Is this what you tell yourself so that you can sleep soundly at night, look at yourself in the mirror, and justify it all? Because I'm not buying it. If you can honestly talk about how you make a living to your girlfriend or your mother, then let me know. But I won't hold my breath.

My mother gave me good counsel when I was 12 and got caught shoplifting (I would steal make-up and give it to my friends who were piss poor). She said,"If you're ever unsure about whether something you're about to do is wrong or right, just ask yourself if you would do it if I were standing right there with you." Pretty simple lesson in how to check whether you're justifying any delusions-of-personal-convenience. Try it. Sound advice, totally free of charge.


Oh, and Geyser: you most definitely ROCK.
Commenty Colin: thanks for the laugh.

kiala i wasnt insulting fat on chicks. I like some of that. I dont like to see anyone, any gender not putting their best foot forward, dressing down, letting their low self esteem billow around them like a cloud.


This article is classic. Just solid reporting with a perfect poker face. And then the guy coming on here to defend himself by saying he only markets in losers who have never kissed a woman is absolute bonus. Director's cut!

@ anonimous

Quote: "Is this what you tell yourself so that you can sleep soundly at night"

...Actually, I learned everything I know from Charlie Sheen. My "goddesses are all I need to sleep soundly at night.

WINNING!

P.S. I'm apologize for the immaturity, but this is too much fun.

Well then, Vince: you seem to have set your sights on a logical role model.

May your successful future be filled with companionship-for-pay hoe bags that will bring you back from near overdoses again and again. Until the day they just get tired of your sorry ass, wait for you to pass out, empty your wallet, wipe their prints, and flea the scene before the cops arrive to find you lying in a pile of your own vomit.

ooo I want to get in on the advertising:

"Vince Vallejo is: the Eli Sunday of Game."

Maybe on a banner, trailing behind a plane?

Oh, and after I read #49, I got seductioned again. Damn your easy confidence and charisma, Vallejo!

I'm posting this completely unrelated comment as to try and help get that "Now we're cooking...with pot!" story off the "Most Popular" tab. Carry on...

@Colin: I didn't even know you'd healed up from that unanesthetized rectal surgery. Back in the game...good man!

What ever happened to the innate beauty and goodness of human sexuality in all its wonderful diversity?

i am finding it increasingly more difficult to troll the comments and make distasteful jokes. for instance, @ #18 rich bachelor
you take women out for hotdogs? PUAs TAKE WOMEN IN FOR HOT DOGS!

thank yeww i will be here all day

Dave Bow totally got that chick's digits!!!

...is what I learned from this story.

To be fair, Portland doesn't have that much of a "Chinatown" to speak of...

I hate to admit this, but I've actually read The Game. It was given to me as a gag gift when I was single, and I found it to be a deplorable book.

Being able to get someone's phone number or whatnot comes mainly from confidence. If you are confident, at ease with yourself, happy, or an interesting person to talk to, that's all well and good. You can probably get lots of people who think you're sexy-tastic by being self-assured.

The Game, though, doesn't really encourage men to cultivate that sort of confidence. It doesn't really encourage men to be confident by, say, wearing nice pants or having interesting hobbies. It doesn't encourage guys to be confident attractive because they can say "I like who I am, and other people will, too."

What Mystery and his ilk do is infuse confidence in guys by saying "I can decrease a woman's confidence relative to my own, I can knock her off balance and manipulate her." Whether PUAs can really do this or not, I do see how the illusion this supposed knowledge could make a shy guy more confident. He would see his own supposed self-worth increase relative to a woman's.

And that's messed up, weird, and a tiny bit sociopathic.

I wonder if asking for that girl's number and then not calling her made Dave feel icky. It would make me feel icky. Icky.

@JStreckert: You win.

Quick observation: if you're going to defend yourself from accusations that you're some sort of a sexual predator, leading with "I feel like Michael Jackson" is not the most prudent of moves.

What the hell just happened?! One minute I'm drinking a cup at Stumptown and before I know what happened I'm blowing Vince Vallejo behind the dry cleaners. Graham, help me!

Thanks, Graham! You have a fine and excellent afternoon!

Quoting http://pdxlair.com/2010/06/field-report-th…
"I was out to meet fun, energetic girls with a positive vibe who ACTUALLY wanted to dance and experience life. Not girls who only wanted to dance with their girlfriends (how lame is that?)."

Yes it is so lame when girls choose to dance with their friends. They clearly aren't experiencing life. You can only experience life when a total stranger rubs his crotch on your knee -- amiright girls. Get out there Vince and open that set!

@ Oregometry, I see you fell for Vince's patented Stumptown pickup line: "room for cream?"

"We are a group of guys who want the most out of life..."

...and sometimes talk to women with our cocks out in public.

"We are a group of guys who want the most out of life..."

...and sometimes talk to women with our cocks out in public.

Amen, brother...

WOW, this one hit a hot button!

This one particular example sounds like pure bullshit & i'm sure at least 70% of everything mentioned in this article is pure bullshit - but ANY woman willing to have sex with two strange guys in a car after one of 'em whips his dick out in the middle of a crosswalk deserves to end up in the Green river. I sincerely hope that noone would be soo foolish. Alas, many are just so. It's hard to say whos's worse - the sociopathic douchers who classify themselves "PUAs", or the spray-tanned club skanks who keep validating these types of guys. Hell only knows what goes through the heads of [some] of these women... especially when they're having the life choked out of 'em in the back seat of that Volvo. Yeah, i'm pretty sure Ted Bundy & Gary Ridgeway were both fairly successful PUAs at some point too.
And given the prolificacy of serial killers through-out the NorthWest in the past, it shouldn't be too surprising that this so-called "scene" of PUAs might attract budding psychopaths the way job openings for catholic priests attracts pedophiles. But there is a huge difference b/t a small child in a church & a grown person in a club. There's no need for women to "put the bitch shield" up to every guy who tries to ingage a conversation with 'em. Still, them should keep their "smart guard" up. Otherwise, if you're willing to fuck a guy 30 minutes after meeting him (& you're not even getting paid for it), well, just pray that he's ONLY some lucky douchebag.

Thanks for confirming my gratitude for being 36 and hence an asexual hag to predatory douchebags!

That said, my immediate reaction to the Chinatown-dick out-threesome in a car scenario - without any context, mind you - is that the woman felt threatened and may have thought that her only way out of the situation was to give it up. I live in Chinatown (well, smack dab between Chinatown and the Pearl) and walk my dog at night. If I guy whipped out his dick at me, I'd be terrified. I was mugged at knifepoint in my 'hood last year, and can easily foresee a situation where I'd have to choose between my pussy and getting my throat slit in an alley.

@ TWSS

For your sake, i hope you arm yourself whenever you go out. At night at least.

@ Damos

Oh, I do. With a big fucking dog with big fucking teeth.

Vince...you DO know exposing oneself to women in a public place is a crime, correct? Not something to celebrate?

JStreckert and Pink Dea - right on!

This thread is making me love PDX even more.

I feel like some commentators are projecting some things onto this article that aren't there. First, I think we should all agree with the following two statements:

1) It is good and healthy for people to want to attract members of the opposite sex

2) If a person has a difficult time attracting members of the opposite sex, or want to improve their ability to do so, that is good/okay.

Everybody agree so far?

What if you are good at doing #1 and #2? Does that automatically make you a bad person? Of course not, it all depends on whether you have good values and treat people with respect. It depends on whether you are honest. It depends on whether or not you are a good person.

If you take Vince at his word, all he is doing is helping people achieve #1 and #2, both okay. I don't see anything in the article that makes me think I shouldn't believe him. He tells a story about a crazy dude who exposed himself in public and a very skeezy threesome he had in the back of a car. It's not a particularly flattering story, but a lot of us have probably done one or two sexual things in our lives that we are not particularly proud of. So that doesn't convince me he is a "player" in the bad sense of the word.

Men and women have always played games with each other to get what they want out of relationships. It is a universal dynamic that involves power and some very big questions about morals, philosophy of life and how we treat other people. Everybody has to make their own decisions about what is right and wrong. But I think we should all agree that:

3) It is good to date

4) It is okay to want to have sex

5) Within the context of #1 and #2, it is right and moral to be honest and straightforward about what our expectations are for the relationship as soon as reasonable practicable once we become "involved" with somebody.

I don't see anything in what Vince says that contracts any of these general principles of dating. I think the critics of Vince are projecting a lot of hurt they feel based on people having treated them bad. He does say a few sexist things in the article, which show's he's not perfect but that doesn't mean he is this terrible manipulative POS either. He's just human, as flawed as most of the rest of us.

It's not wrong to want to be attractive to women. It's not bad to want to have sex. Women are just as prone to this as men. I see the negative reaction to Vince in this comment thread as unfair, overly-righteous, and just plain silly. If Vince does treat women like shit, then he is a total dick. Same thing for women who manipulate men and treat men like shit.

No comment..............doh !!!!There I did it again.

@Around, yes to all your points.

But the premise you are operating from is a good, healthy one, and that's not what this secret society is about, or teaches. This isn't a bunch of guys sitting around saying "You'd look better with a different haircut." It is a cult that exploits insecure men out of a lot of money, teaches them how to disengage their emotions and their conscience, and objectify and psychologically manipulate their targets (who are people) into doing what they want.

JStreckert's comment (#61) nails it. Many former-PUAs struggle to find/maintain healthy relationships after being indoctrinated with these teachings because they are no longer able to see women as equals, they still feel they need to trick women into sleeping/being with them (because the root cause of their insecurity has been masked, not dealt with), and it amplifies their need to conquest (because everyone becomes nothing more than a conquest).

I'd be curious to know how you think about this after reading more about exactly what The Game entails. I recommend reading Neil Strauss's book. But for God's sake, don't buy it. He's a predatory douche that fell down the rabbit hole and has chosen to stay there.

It's a cult. Pure and simple. It doesn't serve the men who join it, and it certainly doesn't serve the public at large.

So if I want to get picked up by Dave Bow, I have to go to Northwest Portland?

@ Fruit Cup, that was a dealbreaker for me, too. Vince, on the other hand, delivers.

CC was right, best thread ever. Though I despise the bits where Vince uses words he hates.

"But, seduction (hate that word) is like magic."
"In other words: learning game (I hate that word) is not about becoming a new you, it's about becoming the best you."

Vince, let me quickly utilize a thesaurus on your behalf.
I would replace "seduction" with "enthrallment", it kind of means magical seduction.
"Game" has a lot of synonyms, but I might go with "endeavor", "stratagem" or possibly "shenanigans".

Hope this helps. Also, please keep commenting, I pretty sure you're about to win some hearts and minds.

Animouse: Yes, I've never read The Game. It sounds sick. I did read a self-help book called "the A game." The title sucks, but it's a helpful, positive book that includes a lengthy section on personal grooming and fashion ;) Cheers

What I still can't figure out...

...is how ya-all learned about my late-night dumpster escapade?

Actually, showing your dick to someone in Oregon in and of itself is not a crime.

A person commits the crime of public indecency if while in, or in view of, a public place the person performs:
(a) An act of sexual intercourse;
(b) An act of deviate sexual intercourse; or
(c) An act of exposing the genitals of the person with the intent of arousing the sexual desire of the person or another person.

That being said I prefer to be more subtle when implementing visual mating call. I shave my chest, slap a suction cup dildo on each nipple, put on a speedo and a cape and walk around 4th and Couch screaming "Don't touch my face BITCH!"

it's confidence. one needs confidence to function wholly in the world. this can be scary. many of us carry past experiences that undermine our confidence. this is a weakness that can be preyed upon. educating one side of the sexual divide to take advantage of the other is despicable.

ladies - be savvy.

men - don't be assholes.

we're all in this together...let's try not to hurt one another.

and a puppy

All other comments aside, these 'men' give me the fucking creeps. I'll just take this article as the warning it should be.

Also, @Vince, the more you type, the more you sound like a real tool. It's a little on the sad side :(

Well put, Grimnir.

If this thread reaches the 100 - comment mark, does that break a record?

@DamosA: No, but let's try it anyway. Comment with a mashup of your favorite pre-Production Code musical talking picture and your favorite Saturday morning cartoon show from when you were growing up. Drop out a syllable or two to make it flow if you have to. I'll start: Josie and the Pussy Diggers of 1933.

(Hey, what can I do, if no one's going to bother to post a "Good Morning, News!" today I have to put this nonsense *somewhere*!)

Thanks, Mercury commenters! I was feeling kind of lousy this morning, but your pathetic squabbles cheered me up!