Hold the phone. A moral equivalency has been created between a guy who "threatens and intimidates hundreds of people" and the woman who "rewards that behavior" by "responding positively to a crude comment." In this logic, I should be able to stand on the street and shoot every passerby in the neck with a staple gun because, you know, maybe one of them will fall in love with me because of it. And if they do, they will single handedly become responsible for the hundreds of staple gun injuries I have inflicted waiting for them to show up.
Doesn't it seem like there might be some way to find a person to have sex with that doesn't involve injuring hundreds of people on the off chance one of them might have an injury fetish?
In another comment, we hear "don't be rude, because that might be seen as flirtatious" and "don't be passive because that might be seen as attraction." Also implied is "don't be aggressive because that might be seen as a being a bitch and lead to post-harassment stalking."
Is there any way for a women to respond to a public comment/grope/leer from a stranger that won't be seen as a flirtation by some guy? My guess based on years of personal experience is no.
The suggested answer seems to be "just grin and bear it girls- it is your responsibility to suffer repeated daily threatening behaviors with grace and politeness in order to protect the right of every man to get attention from a woman they find attractive."
I suppose it was obvious when this article was posted that every rape apologist on the planet would swoop in for a round of "women just can't take a compliment" and "maybe you wouldn't get harrassed so much if you would just stop being flirtatious by simply existing in public."
The correct answer is actually: Give compliments to women you know. Receive permission to engage in conversation with women you don't know. Develop interesting skills, hobbies and a fulfilling life that bring you into contact with women who share your interests and are likely to find you sexually attractive once they get to know you. If they do not find you attractive once they get to know you, assume that it is YOU who needs to do something different, not them. Understand in a deep and meaningful way, that if you treat every woman, no matter what she looks like, like she is a busy, powerful and interesting human being who does not want to sleep with you, then any genuine flirtation you receive will be all the more meaningful and actionable for being unsolicited and unambiguous.
guys, if you try talking to a woman and she ignores you, it is not because she's a bitch. obviously, it's because she is gay.
Ok. I think I got it. Don't talk to you, look in your direction, bump into you, hold a door open for you, let you have the right of way or extend any sort of courtesy in your direction because I should probably be concerned that any of my actions will be misinterpreted as some form of assault or harassment. Thanks for the useful advice. I'll be that weird creepy guy you also complain about that doesn't want to ever make eye contact, refuses to waste his time with small talk when you give him his coffee or make change at the grocery store, and always walks past you as if you don't exist.
This kind of subject always brings out simplistic feminist arguments that never recognize there are shades of grey.
One woman's harassment may be acceptable flirtation to another.
Even though the text of this article is about harassment in general the title "Street Harassment" Why is the title not: sexual harassment (in general)? OK, not sure what you authors are trying to imply but since the title is street harassment let's address that:
The "Hey baby pimp wanna be form" is practiced on every attractive female that walks by on the street. A jobless loser with nothing else to do can literally hit on hundreds of women a day and while 99% of the girls walk by and try to ignore the behavior every once in a while one actually thinks a line like "Who dat fine bitch, i'm gonna git her (line I actually heard a guy use that over and over and finally got a girl to turn around and respond)" is charm cubed.
The whole idea is the percentage game is hit on every girl you see, doesn't matter how sexually crude or inappropriate your come on, sooner or later a some girl is gonna like your style. That's why they do it. It works. Now 99% of men don't do this behavior and 99% of women don't respond to it but maybe this is a way for that 1% to hook up. Sure, blame the men for being jackasses but there are women in this world that are attracted to jackasses. Does a man have a right to harass hundreds of women to find that one that likes a jobless creep? Maybe not, but is that 1% of females who encourage this behavior any less responsible than that 1% of men who practice it? When women go on sanctimonious rants about "harassment" they never acknowledge the areas of female complicity with these behaviors. Yeah, I know what you'll say: They're low self esteem women and men shouldn't take advantage of that blah blah... Sorry, I don't buy into that. They are also human beings with brains and are as responsible for knowing better as the men are.
Don't pull the "I'm trying to shift blame on women" crap. I still blame men but I also acknowledge that women share blame also.
If you don't like me specifying "Street Harassment" and start saying this doesn't apply to this that or the other kind, then next time give your article another title.
I'm glad someone mentioned Camille Paglia. She's the only feminist I've ever read that has been honest enough to examine some of the collusions that occurs in male/female sexuality. Try Vamps and Tramps. Great book, great essays. Blows this kind of superficial crap right out of the water.
How about don't talk to strangers? How about the simplicity of that, which you supposedly learn when you're like 4 years old. Don't talk to strangers. Don't pretend that anyone cares what you think about anything when going about your daily business. In fact here's another gem: mind your own business. Keep your eyes and hands to yourself. Are we really having to tell men to go back to re-learn stuff from kindergarten here? Are they that fucking stupid?
The best way to find out if a broad has a bad attitude is to make a pass at her. If she gets snotty, then you've just saved yourself a lot of time. What's needed is for more men to be more assertive and to find themselves a nice Russian gal, who appreciates a man for being a man, and won't try to shoot him down, even though she is no push over.
You absolutely show that you read into my comments what you wanted to read.
1. I never said they CAN'T stand up for themselves. I am saying you can't expect them to. Somebody who is scared and doubts whether they are even right about being harassed is very unlikely to make a scene. You know why women doubt whether they're being harassed? Because people like you tell them "Oh, but it was probably just by accident." It hardly ever is. And you tell women they can't reclaim their personal space with their elbows, but damn we should stand up for ourselves. You're a joke! You know why were terrified to make a scene, even in public? Because if the guy gets mad enough he'll follow us and wait for a better chance to attack us. When women complain about sexual harassment they're often written off as hysteric and overreacting. Because men don't take harassment seriously. Even those that don't actively engage in it. But men aren't the problem.
2. I NEVER asked for men to intervene by using violence. I never would. But if you see your friend annoying a woman don't just fucking stand there until she breaks out in tears. Tell him to cut it the fuck out. Make sure your male friends know that behavior like that is immoral and gross. That's all I want. No need to swoop in and save anybody by beating somebody up. The fact that that is the only thing you can think of as intervention says a lot about you. And helping somebody out who is in some sort of trouble is just plain manners.
3. DON'T EVER TRY TO FUCKING BLAME VICTIMS OF HARASSEMENT FOR BEING HARASSED BY SAYING THEIR BEHAVIOR COULD BE SEEN AS FLIRTATIOUS! If you talk to a stranger in public and they tell you to fuck off or ignore you, then get lost!!! Don't tell women they can't do those things, tell men they need to get a clue. If a woman plays some mind game while flirting it's her loss. If somebody makes it clear they don't want to talk to you, then you leave them alone.
If you've got so much feminism in your cock you should know that when the issue is something you most likely haven't expierenced and will not expierence first hand you sit the fuck down and listen to people who are actually affected by it. The fact that you apparently assume you're an expert on how to deal with sexual harassment and still go for the victim blaming is the last straw for me. I'm unsubscribing from this. Hope you have a good nap.
All these guys trying to make this article about them and say "Poor me! Women can be just as mean!" have most likely not stayed in the house instead of going for a walk to the store after dark out of fear of being raped, they probably haven't had men try to lure them into their car in broad daylight while making a five minute trip to the grocery store, and they definitely haven't been called degrading names in public just because they ignored some jackass that said "Nice ass!".
All these MRAs can shove it and quit trying to divert attention back to them and away from the real issue here.
All you dudes who are defending harassment on the internet: This is why everybody hates your penis.
With all due respect, you don't know shit about me. The "feminism" I see here has NO gender analysis, NO insight, NO program. Just jargon, hysteria and rabble-rousing. I have more feminism in my cock then all these commenters put together.
And if I squint and read generously I can say that the point of the article, which I agree with if we ignore the late-puberty revenge fantasy aspect of it, is that people who do feel threatened absolutely can stand up for themselves, especially in a public place where they are very unlikely to be outright assaulted.
That you don't believe this is true shows how this pseudo-feminism works. You have learned helplessness ingrained in you by society, and the pseudo-feminists fed you the comforting message that your learned helplessness is a valid reaction.
You are literally saying it's every man's job to somehow swoop in and save you when a customer at your work is creepily over-flirty. Did you even read the article? What, when the guy on the bus uses the sleazy "you'd look better if you'd smile" line I should punch him in the face? Or the guy who is staring too long?
I've used violence to protect a woman before, and have been prepared to do so on other occasions. Women might not understand violence from the other side of the knuckles, but you don't just go around fixing to hit people. You try to de-escalate. So the safest way to deal with most street harassers is just to get away from them as quickly as possible, and not engage. And yes, carry pepper spray just in case, and practice using it.
Harassers on a bus, club or other such venue will generally respond to a firm and sincere "leave me alone." If they don't, call for help. Bear in mind that being overly rude can be seen as a form of flirtation, and being overly passive can be seen as acceptance. Because they are, sometimes.
Now I'll leave you to read back through the garbled mess you wrote and find your own damn contradictions. I need a nap.
I liked this article better the first time I read it two weeks ago in The Stranger... We couldn't even get a Portland-specific version?
I wrote that this article is not aimed at men who realise that street harassment is wrong and act like it. Which OBVIOUSLY doesn't include you. Otherwise you wouldn't be this bothered. NO, not all men are the problem. But most men are. Because most men, like you, refuse their responsibility as a part of society that makes light of rape-culture and street-harassment. Their responsibility to stand against behavior like this and call it out when it happens. And yes, that is everybodys responsibility. Except for the victims of street harassment, since you can't expect somebody who already feels threatened to stand up to the person threatening them. From where did the question migrate and to where? Tell me what I am being elusive about. I don't mean to be, although I might have gotten off track.
Also please note that I clearly told you that unless you do harass somebody in the street, that you're not personally responsible for it. But if you let people around you harass without intervening that's like letting your friend drive drunk and when they have an accident saying "Well, nothing anybody could've done about that!"
You know, sometimes I accidentally come off harsher than I intend to be when I make online comments. Sometimes I'm just harsh for fun, but that's another story.
Point is, I'm starting to feel like I'm arguing with a Rush Limbaugh fan, where the question keeps migrating. I never said street harassment wasn't a problem, longlowercasename.
And Kitteh, please, tell me you're trolling. Please. By your logic, everyone is responsible for street harassment. Right? Do you even remember what you wrote twenty minutes ago?
So just because they haven't come up to you and told you they harass women means you don't know them or means they don't do it? And you say I am contradicting myself? If a person you know robs a bank, you know a bank robber, whether he tells you about it or not. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge that you DO know harassers is why you're the problem. The fact that you think you have no influence on whether people you know do this is why you're the problem. Of course you're not personally responsible for somebody yelling at women in the street. But if you would assertively assume the stance that street harassment is a problem, disgusting and wrong it might make somebody reconsider. But you would never do that. would you? Because you have nothing whatsoever to do with street harassment. You wouldn't intervene when somebody did it in front of you, because you're not responsible for it, right? Yeah, how could anybody think you're part of the problem. So confusing. Just because you don't actively participate in a harmful activity doesn't mean you're disconnected from it.
jamdox the fact that you personally say you don't know any catcallers is not proof that catcalling and street harassment are not a problem Jesus christ. You probably don't have any friends who declare themselves anti-semitic either (I mean I hope), so is anti-semitism not a problem?
(maybe you think it's not. As someone who just heard a friend talking about the ziobanker conspiracy, I'm here to tell you it still is. So is street harassment).
I read the whole thing, Kitteh. I took that part out because it doesn't change the basic meaning of what they wrote, and just made shit longer.
And not to be oppressive or anything, but you're contradicting yourself. I actually don't know any cat-callers or harassers. Men I know may be those things, but they haven't revealed it to me.
But despite being a "statistically unlikely" person I am "the problem" and personally responsible for redressing it. But the article isn't directed at me. This makes no sense.
Also, fantasy football?
ha they get mad bcs they have this myopic view that we're talking about them. Patton Oswalt's recent public revision of his stance on rape jokes is a really good explanation/rebuttal of this mindset. @kitteh
Jamdox: nice edit! Realised you should've read the whole thing, huh? What you quoted originally "What men need is a wake-up call: You're the problem. If not you personally, then your best friend, a coworker, or that dude in your fantasy football league is."
Jamdox: Yes EXACTLY. You may not be the problem, but the number of men that harass women means it's statistically unlikely that you don't personally know somebody who is the problem. And it's only fair to make men aware that their friends, co-workers, family are potentially assholes. Because guess what, all women are aware of it, ALL THE TIME! If you don't understand what you're talking about then don't.
"If you don't do shit like this then this is not directed at you. So why get mad?"
"What men need is a wake-up call: You're the problem."
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