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Re: “A Punch in the Mouth”
Score one for modern science, score one for reason, and score one for taking bullies to task. Thank you Portland for not being swayed by fallacious, lazy journalism and junk corporate science from forty years ago.
Re: “A Punch in the Mouth”
Honestly, maxims and the rest of the No vote can go on and on trying to prove how smart you are and post your fancy quotes and blah blah blah. The same can also be said for the Pro vote. It won't change the fact that logic and reason are NOT on your side. The fact that this has become such a heated debate is shocking to me. I grew up in a city that flouridated, so I know the benefits of it.
There only two questions that should be asked; Is it safe? Yes. Does it work? Yes.
Kind of a no brainer, but the far left want to turn it into a bigger issue than it needs to be. And for the record, I'm about as far left as they come. I believe in socialism and hope to see firearms of all kinds completely banned. But on this issue, I have to go with my experience and all logical reasoning which tells me flouride in the water is nothing to fear.
Re: “A Punch in the Mouth”
Lets not forget the main and really only reason why every major city has flouridated their water. That is to help the less fortunate, those who can't afford or who have probably never been to a dentist, from losing their teeth.
I would argue that it's a lot easier for the well-to-do to take flouride out of their water than it is for the less fortunate to add it to it. Not everyone in this city comes from a white, upper middle-class background, even though it sure feels that way most of the time.
Re: “A Punch in the Mouth”
This vote just proves this town is run by a bunch of stupid, well-to-do white people. Ok, lets not do what every other major city has done and which actually works, all so we can remain "weird."
I find it ironic that a city and state that claims to be helping children by shielding them from so-called harmful chemicals like flouride and vaccines, has the highest rates of autism in the nation. Not to mention the worst teeth outside of the deep south.
Re: “A Punch in the Mouth”
Okay then. I realize that after a couple of beers (maybe three or four) my statements were somewhat less than elegant. Mea culpa. But here the thing that needs pointing out to my “fellow lefties” on the pro-fluoride parade:
You are making egregious errors in your misunderstanding, mischaracterization, and dismissal of other lefties.
The way that you have tried to paint us as idiots and/or lunatics and/or conservative sheep is not a responsible tactic; certainly not one employed by “true Liberals.” Lefties have an advantage over right-wingers in that we actually listen and give consideration to other perspectives. On this, you have failed. While it may be true that the anti-fluoridation camp may be diverse (respect diversity?) and also consist of some narrow-mindedness, there are a substantial number of us who are very well educated and understand the complexities of the situation well. We are not “global-warming-denying-flat-earth-all-government-is-bad” people. Your attempt to paint us this way is, well, a familiar tactic of people who can’t really defend their position (often employed by right-wingers, who also often have a difficult time with reason).
Your “fellow lefties” have presented a number of arguments that suggest the course that you propose is not wise, and your response has been akin to “Why do you hate poor people?!” and “Well, the doctors and the government say it’s okay” and “Hey, everybody’s doin’ it.” Not exactly convincing.
And so you resort to name-calling and the erroneous and onerous assertion that we are blindly following a misinformation conspiracy-theory campaign. This reveals that you clearly have not been listening. And, indeed, such an approach suggests that, conversely, it is you who have been doing so! (As you put your metaphorical fingers in your ears and yell louder than we with your fallacious arguments.)
What happened to people who used to question when corporate polluters and their lobbyists pushed legislation that makes it possible to do their worst to the environment? What happened to those of you who understood that the Western (and Global North) approach to treating the medical (societal) symptoms rather than the disease model is unsustainable? What happened to the inquisitive minds that put claims of authority to the test (e.g. those Harvard economists whose “research” advanced global austerity measures, which was published without peer review and whose conclusions were debunked when flaws in their methodology were exposed)? Do you not wash your veggies to clean off chemicals that we are told are “safe?”
There is so much you do not accept at face value. But this?! Please, try again.
“The disappointed one speaks. I searched for great human beings; I always found only the apes of their ideals.” #39 Maxims & Arrows
Re: “A Punch in the Mouth”
Wrong, Spoolo. All the inflammatory remarks came from people who tried to position themselves as the "rational" party. Here's the thing, (expletive here): Is putting fluoride in the water the only solution? No! Is it the best of many other solutions? No! And don't try to pigeon-hole me. Not for a second. Your blind acceptance of the claims made by the ADA and AMA do not impress me. These organizations aren't immune to corruptive influence or being wrong. (And don't try and call me a conspiracy nut either!) Major corporations have enjoyed a long tradition of installing people in high places like the FDA and the EPA, etc. If Monsanto creates it and the FDA approves it, that makes it all right? By your logic, yes. I am not your right-winger, Spoolo. Now come on over for that jab in the eye.
Re: “A Punch in the Mouth”
("we know how to read scientific, peer-reviewed primary sources of information as your inferiors") I'm happy you can read. But more relevatnt in this issue, do you also have an idea about the concept of "level of evidence"? e.g. an observational study of a different population, subject to very different exposures (flouride and non-flouride) than are suggested for Portland's water fluoridation, which then reports a lower IQ (a parameter of uncertain validity) or different thyroid function or stained teeth in those exposed to flouride... and the anti-flouride movement LAPS IT UP because it confirms their pre-existing opinion?
The point: it's NOT been a scientific debate in any way-- see the comment from your mixed flavor amigo above and from numerous other merc posts, radio shows, TV interviews, etc over the past 2 weeks.
The vote was an advancement of an emotional anti-authority, anti-government, pro-"purity" argument, and unashamedly so. It's a little too late to suggest science supports your claims of harm of proposed water fluoridation. (Many of your cronies don't care and have said as much.) So with this campaign, you clearly HAVE joined the ranks of the idealogues, and are NO different than the religious right in that way. Welcome to the bliss of ignorance.
Re: “A Punch in the Mouth”
The "counterculture" is a cancer on the Left.
Re: “A Punch in the Mouth”
It's unbelievable that The Mercury can't bring themselves to eat some crow and deliver a neutral review of the results. Somehow you have to find a way to continue to insinuate NO-voters are uneducated whack-a-doodles who rely on "junk science" and conspiracy to form their opinions. Oh and the never ending accusation that opposition voters don't care about the children, yet if that were the case then why the hell did the Children's Levy pass so overwhelmingly...could it be that anti-fluoride voters were in support of that?
Let alone the failure to praise the amazing grass-root efforts made by CWP, where we actually saw people from opposite sides of the political spectrum come together and shatter the stalemate divide plaguing our society today. There's indeed an important lesson to be learned here.
And for you to pretend that you didn't benefit financially from your PRO stance is insulting as well. Aside from the accusations of bribery and the like, the money you made off of site-visit advertising had to set some records for your marketing department. Crafting pieces obviously written to stir up the emotions, thus resulting in 400+ comment threads....cha-ching!
As for Steve Novick, what's really "sad" is what has already become of him. I've never witnessed a faster sell-out of a political official and I'll forever regret volunteering for his Senatorial campaign. It's just creepy how quickly he's slipped into Randy Leonard's (fore)skin and has taken on his bravado attitude. I guess that will happen when the political elite of this city basically hand you a Commissioner's seat. The hilarity in it all is he has yet to be given any real responsibilities from the mayor, but he's sure as hell wasting no time sending all the wrong signals. Yes, another round for Steve...his eyes aren't quite swollen shut yet!
So boo-fucking-hoo-hoo you pseudo-progressives. I guess The Mercury staff will just have to continue to take the suppository approach to ensure your fluoride intake. Just be careful not to stick the toothpaste tube too deep, it can get slippery.
Re: “A Punch in the Mouth”
You betray your ignorance by making such statements. Your name-calling and accusations also reveal a cynicism usually indicative of narrow-minded right-wingers. Do not charge your fellow Liberals (also very well educated and discerning consumers of information--read: we know how to read scientific, peer-reviewed primary sources of information) as your inferiors. Doing so does not reflect well on your claim to legitimacy. And I'll gladly jab anyone in the eye who tries to say I'm not a Liberal!
Re: “A Punch in the Mouth”
The Politics of Fear have won the day again, against reason.
Re: “A Punch in the Mouth”
This is so typical of the irrationality rampant in the media recently. You mix together your vehement, anti-corporate, blind distrust with a practical measure designed to help people. You are the new ultra-conservative zealot, blinded by ideology, immune to information and progress. You despise religious right wingers for their ideology? I despite them for their irrationality. You are just as bad.
Pathetic level of debate and attitude in this election. Should I move from Portland? Yes, I will (for other reasons, but this makes is easier). and before you say good-- and at risk of immodesty: it's not good that people who care, are open-minded, want to do the right thing, look you in the eye when you talk, and are liberal are moving far away happily, from zealots like you.
Re: “A Punch in the Mouth”
I bet 100/1 hardly anyone from the Merc or other papers or the pro side bothered to take time to see where & who fluoridation chemicals came from. How about Mosaic. A company whose CEO just received a 22% bonus & supports GMO's. Or how about Simplot, a supplier for Salem. They're working on GMO potatoes because Monsanto failed to do so. They have been fined in the PNW & Oregon for pollution. And then we have Univar. A corp that proudly gets & distributes toxic chemicals to Dow, DuPont, Syngenta, Bayer, BASF, and so many other big-pharma & big agri-biz corps.
Guess "justice" and "equity" means land and community destroying phosphate mining & lining CEO's pockets so they can grow GMO's and pollute towns & cities at the same time. That's where fluoridation chemicals come from and I'm glad Portland can now get to working on solutions that are based on real advocacy & real solutions, instead of gagging on Simplots toxic scrote.
Re: “A Punch in the Mouth”
I'm curious to know why it is Clean Water Portland and many, many Portlanders that makes these type of accusations, yet no one in the media seems to do the same?
"Opponents accused them of manufacturing a crisis, and colluding with state workers to withhold the study."
Re: “The Big Dismount”
I THINK ALL OF YOU ARE HORSING AROUND, REGARDS JENIFER ANISTON
Re: “The Big Dismount”
"And despite a high-profile push to rescue the 122-year-old unit . . ." 122 years? I beleive the unit was started in the early 1980s, with the first two horses owned by the officers who rode them, and focusing on Downtown, especially the South Park Blocks.
Re: “The Big Dismount”
Police horses are a bain on society. Have you ever seen the huge craps they take? Do the police officers ever clean it up? HELL NO! So yay, we get huge land mines of horse shit on the sidewalks; where people actually walk on, you know pedestrians?! Its perfectly okay for police officers to not clean up their horse shit, then it gets smeared all over the sidewalk from traffic. I'm sure all those people that walk through the smeared wet horse shit are just thrilled to have mounted police strolling around. Ugh, you people are terrible.
Re: “They Keep Dying Out There”
Its PEOPLE, thats the problem.i so wish the world government would hurry up and drop a chemical from the stratosphere that would sterilize a generation of the population. Less of you and less of me would ease so much strife and pollution. Eventually we could get back to makin' bacon but why not take a break for awhile?
RSSGoing to Seattle?
Re: “A Punch in the Mouth”
Yeah, thank you Portland for ignoring people with master degrees in toxicology; water purification. These people obviously know nothing about fluoride.
I wish all you tourist fucks would leave Portland already.