Comments

1
hey old people! Please don't write an editorial about college grads being so entrenched in debt that they have to move into their parent's basements and not mention the rising costs of college!

The average $25,000 debt of recent college grads has a lot less to do with "latte longing" and more to do with the cost of college rising 40% over the last five years while federal education grants have decreased.

I think the basement-dwellers phenomena shows that young people are willing to sacrifice a lot -- you think living in a parent's basement is an idea of a good time? -- to get a good education.

Also, it's high time that aging writers learn that no one under the age of thirty five has EVER used the phrase "Generation Y" or "Generation X" except in the context of mocking senior citizens' bemusement at The Youth Today.
2
I've lived here 34 years, and the city has always been changing and evolving in the manner that you speak. Adams certainly isn't the first highly ambitious, ruthless mayor this city has ever seen, and Peterson isn't the first (or even thousandth) small business to be shat on. It likely only appears it's all just changing recently to you because you only recently moved here. The city today isn't what it was the year you moved here, just as it wasn't the same the year before that, or the year before that. Moving someplace with an image of that place in your mind and expecting it not to evolve and simply remain the same isn't being honest. Portland isn't the same city it was when I was a kid, but I'd never expect it to be the same, and it's still a good place to live and hopefully will remain so as it grows and changes in the future.
3
Oh, and Matt... get your ass to the Timbers game tonight!
4
"Moving someplace with an image of that place in your mind and expecting it not to evolve and simply remain the same isn't being honest."

You're right, Jack, but that's not my attitude. I moved here with the expectation that the city would soon be as exciting as New York, and personally, I love a bit of cut-throat competition.

I'm just a little impatient for the rest of the city to catch on. That's all...
5
Also, I'll be at the Timbers tonight. After Sisters of the Road has its Truth Commission on the Sit/Lie ordinance.
6
"Mainly, we went shopping. I think Nordstrom, Abercrombie & Fitch and Brooks Brothers will need to be ordering a special shipment to replenish their stocks this morning. And as the inside of our fridge proves, we ate out. A lot. We hit: Dalo’s kitchen (5 out of 5), Jake’s (5 out of 5), Sel Gris (6 out of 5 if that’s possible), Higgins (5 out of 5), and this Italian wood fired pizza place in Irvington that I can’t remember the name of, but which I am starting to think of myself as a regular at, not to mention Pix (who were busy as all shit, but playing the Police live album at full volume, which deserves 10 out of 5 for imagination), and Kenny & Zukes, where a piece of Cheesecake and a Root Beer Float, it turns out, are the perfect appetizer for a four course dinner elsewhere."

So Portland is changing and it's getting tougher to climb out of debt and have your cake too? Cry me a river.
7
"I still have $20,000 in student loans.."

Or with exchange rates as they are today, maybe about £20.

In all seriousness, though, I heartily agree with you and I'm eagerly awaiting the full economic blowup that Portland is long overdue for. Personally, I think the whole green fad is going to work mostly to Portland's advantage, though the amount of empty "Spaces for Lease" and unused property and development space in downtown among other areas in the inner city don't make me feel that way.
8
"So Portland is changing and it's getting tougher to climb out of debt and have your cake too? Cry me a river."

You've misunderstood me. I'm not in debt. 10,000GBP of student loans isn't considered "debt" in my country, because they can't force you to repay it. I don't have any credit cards, and I paid of my overdraft by working hard. That's the point I'm making. I work hard. And I like my cake. And I'm happy to eat it, along with your milkshake.

The problem is baby boomers frowning on the debt their kids are forced to take on, because it's not the same as it was in their day. There's a generation war. And Portland, unlike other cities, has so far escaped it.

But it won't be long before old buffers like the O's editorial board are swept out by the people they're judging.
9
Tell you what else: The stereotype from 1992 that's so inaccurate and annoying now, was no less inaccurate and annoying back then, especially to those who got slapped with it. 1992 I got out of college and couldn't find a job... why? Because I'm just a slackin'ass Gen-X-er all apathetic with my coffee and my micro-brew and my grunge music? No, because Bush Sr. made sure to siphon all the money out of the economy back then just like his son's doing now. Piss me off. And all the dullards in the press were ig'nant or complicit like they are now, except you MD, xoxo, and all the cracka-ass hacks were attackin' and ass-backward stackin even back then, by crackie.
10
"Extended parenting"? And here I thought that being a parent is one of those contracts that only ends with death or severe litigating circumstances.

Personally, though, I got the hell out of my parent's house as soon as I could and never looked back. Of course, it helped that they lived in North Bend at the time.
11
Really Bob?

And why is it that these "Generation-Yers" (which, s.mirk is right, we NEVER call ourselves, rather is a term coined by those out of touch boomers like yourself trying to understand the younger generation....that's what humans do, right? coin terms + names for things they don't understand) find themselves w/so much credit card debt?

If I remember my high school days, which as a hard-working bookworm geek that I was included no drugs to skew my memory, we were bombarded + hit before we were even of age to sign up for this credit card + that under the guise of "building credit". Mass-marketing campaigns carried on by people of YOUR generation to create a consumer culture that so many are now victim to.

It wasn't OUR generation that created the cell phone or the fruity drinks you guys call "coffee"....

It wasn't OUR generation that screwed us out of the government higher education benefits you so luxuriously benefited from. Both Bushes have seen to that in staggering numbers.

It wasn't OUR generation that created those shopping malls in the sprawling suburbs filled w/window candy for
all us teenie boppers looking for a place to kill time in a disconnected culture YOUR generation created. Hell, we're the generation trying to find ways to BRING BACK community + fix all your generations ills of abandoned shopping malls, suburban sprawl, pollution.....on + on + on. I don't think that's a bad resume for us broke slackers HUMBLY living in our parents' basement.

Shall I keep going, Bob?

Bob....
Bob........?
Why do I think you didn't even read Matt's post + are even bothering to visit this site.

I would post this on yours, but then, I guess that would take a little bit of work.

Eh, Y bother?
12
Really Bob?

And why is it that these "Generation-Yers" (which, s.mirk is right, we NEVER call ourselves, rather is a term coined by those out of touch boomers like yourself trying to understand the younger generation....that's what humans do, right? coin terms + names for things they don't understand) find themselves w/so much credit card debt?

If I remember my high school days, which as a hard-working bookworm geek that I was included no drugs to skew my memory, we were bombarded + hit before we were even of age to sign up for this credit card + that under the guise of "building credit". Mass-marketing campaigns carried on by people of YOUR generation to create a consumer culture that so many are now victim to.

It wasn't OUR generation that created the cell phone or the fruity drinks you guys call "coffee"....

It wasn't OUR generation that screwed us out of the government higher education benefits you so luxuriously benefited from. Both Bushes have seen to that in staggering numbers.

It wasn't OUR generation that created those shopping malls in the sprawling suburbs filled w/window candy for
all us teenie boppers looking for a place to kill time in a disconnected culture YOUR generation created.

Hell, we're the generation trying to find ways to BRING BACK community + fix all your generations ILLS + POOR DECISIONS of abandoned shopping malls, suburban sprawl, pollution.....on + on + on. I don't think that's a bad resume for us broke slackers living in our parents' basement.

Shall I keep going, Bob?

Bob....
Bob........?
Why do I think you didn't even read Matt's post + are even bothering to visit this site.

I would post this on yours, but then, I guess that would take a little bit of work.

Eh, Y bother?
13
Dude, you just called New York "laid back." Have you ever been there?
14
The easier it gets to go to college (via government lending you $) the less valued commodity it becomes, competition increases and degrees get more worthless.
As for Portland, the harder they make it to run a business, raise taxes and tell everybody how to get to work, young people will be fleeing as Californian retirees fill the condos.

15
I didn't call New York laid back. It's full of more and more ruthlessly ambitious people scrapping for an ever-smaller piece of the pie.

As the pie gets bigger, or smaller, here in Portland, and more and more people come here to try to eat it, there's only one direction for our celebrated civic-mindedness to go...
16
D, I totally disagree with your reasoning. The idea that expensive degrees are worth more in society is disturbing. It also seems to be widespread, judging by how colleges across the country keep upping their costs (my own alma mater, Grinnell College, raised tuition twice in the four years I was there to "keep pace with our peer institutions") so I think it's worth quickly outlining the problems with this idea:

- The more people we have attending college in America, the more informed and educated a populace we have. Whatever the potential dip in your paycheck, I think this is a good goal to strive for.

- Keeping smart kids without trust funds from attending college so the degrees of rich kids are worth more perpetuates a slew of negative discrepancies along race and class lines. I think no kid who wants a good education blocked by lack of dollars, which is exactly what federal grants are for.

- The quality of education colleges can provide depends a lot on the diversity of the student body. In my experience, I always learn more in classes made up of students from different social and economic backgrounds.

So, making college accessible for students of all income levels does NOT devalue its worth. Putting more federal and state funding into improving access to secondary education in a big way is a key to decreasing poverty and improving our economy overall.
17
I would argue that it's not the fact that college is accessible to people of lesser means that is the problem, because they tend to be more appreciative of being there and work harder. But on the other hand, hardly anyone fails out of Ivy League schools, and it's not because they're all geniuses. Is there anyway to keep the smug, self-entitled trust fund kids who aren't going to get anything out of it anyway *out* of college?
18
I love all the dialogue over generational issues. I've studied it and you are so right (Matt) that there are definite issues there. But I hope you remember there are at least two sides to each argument (or issue). I won't defend Bob Caldwell, because as far as I'm concerned he's way off base, and you're absolutely right that the "O" is in a hard place partly because they've not moved along with the times. BUT, I do think younger folks should not disrespect everyone who doesn't see the world as THEY do. Respect surely is earned (not by years, but by experience, and by respecting others). So I offer that as a point . . . I'd like to see a little less anger toward older folks who were our parents and grand parents, and a little more self-reflection here. AND at the same time I'd like to see a little less anger from the older folks directed at the up and coming younger folks who deserve a chance. Nuf said.
19
A chance to drink the milkshake. Exactly.
20
Compare the US university system with the British one. Where every university costs the same (until the current government get their way at least) - from the lowliest commuter university right up to Cambridge, one of the top 5 in the world. Yet the best universities still have a disproportionately high number of what would be recognised here as trust fund types, because the 'working classes' feel from (generally undeserved) reputation that they wouldn't fit in so they never apply (the acceptance rates actually favour poorer families). So it's not just a question of money and tuition fees that determines who goes where.

Back on topic: I don't think I've ever met a college grad who would choose to live with their parents for more than a few months after graduation if they could afford to get their own place. But it takes more than two months to get sorted out after graduation, especially if (as everyone really should do) you take a break and travel before getting a job. So the idea that because grads are living at home two months after graduation means they want to stay there is ridiculous.
21
My point is, if everyone has a college degree it effectively lowers the bar to the level of a high school degree.
Not everyone is as smart or ambitious as everyone else and that fact can't be changed by throwing money or legislating it.
It's simple economics.
22
Since this debate's veered into the merits of a college degree I wanted to share this post that has statistics on the percentage of people that do attend college...

http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2008/08/05/is-college-really-necessary-for-all-high-school-graduates/

I agree that for many people college educations are very valuable -- it was essential for my being hired for my current job -- but college degrees are not the only indicator of societal merit.

Technical schools, the training given through military service, entrepreneurship (just to name a few) are some of the avenues of societal value that do not have any relation to the liberal arts Bachelor of Arts degrees being discussed. My art history thesis never comes up at work... and I try to bring it up at every opportunity! Particularly looking at the surprisingly strong numbers of successful business owners/operators with dysfunctions such as dyslexia, college educations are not for everyone.

I'll take a Burgerville Hazelnut Milkshake, thank you!
23
Tell you what else again some more: You know what the most retarded-ass part of Bob's editorial is?

"Even though gainfully employed, a shockingly high percentage of graduates seem to find the modern starting salary not quite compatible with some very basic needs.
Such as the cell phone.
And the latte longing."

Ignore for a moment the use of a new paragraph.
And a period.
For two lines that aren't even sentences.

I'm more wondering like, is he suggesting that 22-year-olds can't afford their own place because they SQUANDER THE WHOLE MONTH'S WORTH OF RENT MONEY ON COFFEE? Given that "your own place" in Portland costs like $600 or something if you're VERY LUCKY, you'd have to buy like 7 venti-whatevers a day for that, and be a stingy tipper at that. I don't care who you are, nobody's system can handle that much coffee. Maybe you could do it if you poured them down the gutter (which is the correct use of Starbuck's coffee at least) instead of drinking them.

A cell phone costs the same as a land-line, so I'm not even going to waste my ti...
24
And how in the fuck did I get the name "Grapleberry Assface!?!!" I must've created this Mercury profile whilst drunk. O the shame.
25
D - so that means get rid of the Gentleman's C and make every course like Organic Chemistry. Fine with me.

26
Grapleberry Assface - I, too, graduated from college in 1992. One of my assignments for the newspaper was interviewing the Director of Career Placement - he said that the job market was "the worst it's been in my 30 years in academia".

So we start out fruitlessly applying for jobs that were ripe for the picking for college graduates 5-10 years before us. Combine that with the trends of corporate downsizing ("Let's fire perfectly good employees so our stock price will rise!"), and criminally expensive health care costs, and it's no wonder that people can't make ends meet.

I'm a bankruptcy attorney (and advertiser in the Mercury, on the back page), and the majority of my clients seek me out because of medical bills, loss of a job, or divorce/separation.
27
Matt - your short bio was very enlightening.

Quite frankly, we're not the Sam Adams demographic, and neither were the people on my block (in Woodlawn, north of Alberta) who attended a block party we had last weekend.

My neighbors (and myself) range in age from their late 20s to early 40s. Many have children, from babies to about 8-10 years old. All of us are firmly middle-class. All of us bought our houses from 2000 to 2006.

It's also likely that we wouldn't be able to buy our houses now, and there's NWIH that we'd be able to buy a Pearl District or South Waterfront condo, the development that Sam Adams prefers.

But the supporters of Sam Adams also hate the new I-5 bridge (and so does Amy Ruiz). But if soaring real estate values push people out of Northeast, they have to go somewhere - and Vancouver is one place they're going to end up.

It seems as if Pearlies want to punish middle-class people who can't afford to live in NE, but can afford to live in Vancouver, with traffic and tolls.
28
The Oregonian's characterization of a large-scale, economically-driven trend as the fault of individual young people (who are apparently pissing away all their money on such extravagant vices as coffee and cell phones), is yet another example of blaming individuals for systemic issues.

The second commenter on the Oregon Live post made a good point about 20-somethings living with their parents being much more common and accepted in other parts of the world, primarily due to the economic necessity of such an arrangement.

Due to debt and economic downturns, we're becoming more interdependent as a society, and it's frustrating that individuals are being stigmatized for doing what makes perfect sense, or perhaps, what they have no other choice but to do.

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