It is sad but the private corporation is the strongest tool our country has for enacting social change. It is more powerful than an individual (because of liability shielding, to start), and isn't restricted like a 501. However, one problem with corporations in the modern era, is that they are everlasting beasts that fly above us mere mortals, and they don't die when we die. They also are not bound to any sort of "constitution" per se, even their articles of incorporation can be rewritten etc.

Thus, unless these dudes do something particularly clever (and binding) to ensure their corporation follows these principles, we will just have to take their word for it, and will have to believe that the corporation will embody their beliefs, even if their personal involvement with the corporation (or the economy of the situation) changes. Perhaps it would help if they drafted some bylaws that set the tone and shared it with the public.

cheers and good luck, good idea

Rad. I go there all the time. Well, not all the time, but often. Hope it works out. I'de hate to have to go somewhere else.

I just threw up in my mouth a little.

'The money earned at the coffee shop will go toward paying the four co-owners personal bills and the bills for the shop.'
There's a word for that - it's called a 'business'

"That means the money earned at the coffee shop will go toward paying the four co-owners personal bills and the bills for the shop."

Umm. You mean like a for-profit business?

Just kidding... sort of.

I really admire people who put their ideals into action. I wish them the best. Screw Red and Black for never getting back to them, they ain't too busy to help somebody out. Seem to remember a year or so back they were asking for someone to help them out.

As much as I like with the idea/ideals behind the Red and Black, they sure are elitist and seem to have a 'better/more radical-than-thou' attitude. I would love to support them but each time I go there, whether it's for an event or just to drink tea and have some food, I feel that vibe.
Good luck to Muddy Waters.

"Okay, here is for your bills, and your bills, and your bills...."

"Um, but I have higher rent than he does."

"Oh, um. Okay then everyone can get that higher amount. We have $250 left to give away."

"$250? Cool."

"Yeah, um cool."

"I had to take my cat to the vet last week."

"Umm, I'd really like to get cable."

"Oh, uh...."

Would it be too much for me to dream that people learn the basic laws of economics before they open shops? Or better yet run for office?

Portlands so funny now! I grew up in the trendy side before it was trendy, so all I can do is just laugh.

This startup says if they pay all 4 pplz bills, (which has no limit right, i mean an invoice from a hired car is a bill right?) they will donate to some random charity.

LOL.

Good job Merc on the free advertorial though :)

PS In the meantime, my workin' man dad, whose lived in the newly urbanized neighborhood doesn't feel comfortable walking into the coffee shop 4 blocks from him.

epic tast ic

In response to Jonser, I would say faster. I mean, they can't get any slower. ZINGERS!

I'm with W.E.I. (I don't want to type that whole name out, that would take too long, sorry) about Red and Black. I never get that vibe from Muddy Waters, though. Just sass, and halfway-decent coffee.

Meh, I only go to bikini coffee shops anyway these days.

These comments are awesome!
Public by-laws are coming soon.
Maybe clear up a few things...?
Yes, this business is structured as a for-profit. A non-profit restricts our ability to give the money where we want it to go. i.e base jumping trips to the swiss alps. etc. :-)

Man, I am trying to think of some way to justify and say that we are good people but everything i come up with just sound like BS. So im not going to justify. All im gonna say is stick around and see the changes. Those of you that have been here for more than 6 months have already seen multiple, positive changes.

It is really easy to liken us to a typical business that is just trying to make money to go on exotic trips. In this day and age, it is harder to believe that there is actual good people out there that are willing to give of their time and money and selves, just to build a community that is safe for everyone to be a part of. Like I said before--stick around and see the changes. Better yet, be a part of the change and not just the peanut gallery! :-)

nothin' but love...
the huggers

...faster bagels coming soon.
maybe...

Sorry we gave you so much grief. I wish your initiative the best, and hope it turns out how you envision.

Hey, the Swiss Alps, now that's somewhere I've haven't been yet. Will you take me along?

You're right, those with questions will just have to wait and see. After all, they don't really know you that well.....

pop

"That means the money earned at the coffee shop will go toward paying the four co-owners personal bills and the bills for the shop."

Umm. You mean like a for-profit business?

funny enough...a non profit 501c3 organization has the same set up...the "profit" part of any business model=excess. we are running like a for-profit in the governments eyes ...which means we dont have to have restrictions on who/when/why we give our money away..we are running like a non profit when it comes to what we do with that excess...and if we didnt pay our bills we would not be able to throw fundraisers for the homeless...because we would be the homeless...so to say that we live off tips is to say that, after my rent is paid, tip money pays for everything else in my life...the way that we spend our money is not a secret...if you are truly concerned with the legitimacy...you can always ask :-) we found we are more free to give more running the shop as a for-profit...make sense?
we are all stoked to walk this through with the public...our neighborhood has been so encouraging ...damn beautiful people...thank you for that...
and yes...4pplz bills has a lot of limits...i, being one of the 4..make an approx $1.80 an hour ...taking bills vs. hours.

"n this day and age, it is harder to believe that there is actual good people out there that are willing to give of their time and money and selves, just to build a community that is safe for everyone to be a part of. Like I said before--stick around and see the changes. Better yet, be a part of the change and not just the peanut gallery! "

well said, mike.

you lovely skeptics come party with us march 1st and we can talk out the details over a beer while we auction off our studly men .... firedancing, bellydancing, live hip hop...and show some love to our roofless friends.
whoop!

I tried to tell them not to bother. Put out a good product, help who you want to help and dont bother with anonymous faceless ftards on a message boards, I says.

What do they do? What happens?

Jake, as a member of the community, if you have an idea of where donations could be better allocated, they have a suggestion box, or nail it to the post.

For a bunch of ignant ass crackers, they actually are very nice and giving people

As I recall, having been involved in setting up a few non-profits and a few charitable organizations...

Almost any business can be a "non-profit". This merely means that in your bylaws, you declare that your assets will be distributed to other non-profits upon dissolution. Otherwise, there's very little difference between a non-profit and a for-profit corp, at least as far as Oregon and Federal tax-law goes.

On the other hand, it takes a lot of work to be a "charitable" organization, commonly organized as something that starts with the familiar "501(c)[something]" that you hear. This requires a review by the feds to determine that everything is about giving back, but once you get it, individuals can get tax deductions for some or all of their donations.

It's very likely that the best this coffee shop will be is a non-profit, which is fine by me, and available by checking the right box on the tax forms. Trying to also make it a charitable 501-c-something doesn't seem that useful.

I love that this place supports the very idea of not-being-in-it-to-get-monetary-benefit. Yes, they receive money and make bagel sandwiches and coffee and don't have bylaws or nonprofit tax exemptions... but hell if I don't feel good that I've been invited to perform at the RAFFLE FOR THE ROOFLESS on March 1st. I don't get paid either, but the opportunity to provide my belly dance services for the betterment of the community is a rare one indeed. Come and enjoy, and for those of you that DO get paid for the things you do, would you bid on a big studly man for me at the auction?

actually, the organization that we are benefiting, HOMEPDX (homepdx.net if you wanna look it up) attempts to not label their community as homeless, because the organization attempts to be a "home" for them...if they are referencing them they use the term "our friends that live outside" ...so in honor of their wishes we did not use the term homeless.
and the benefit is a raffle...so we went with alliteration.
sorry if that seems silly to you....but its more silly that we feel the need to insult word-usage instead of being stoked that you get a chance to love the people of your city that are consistently shown disgust.

jesus christ. stop yer blubbering, "aloe" and "mike"- it's a great idea, it looks to be working out, we all wish you success. do ya have to be so vomit- tous about it, though? you botyh sound like retarded kinder garden substitute teachers.

only the best wishes,
Vera

I work at the Red and Black, and I just wanted to clear a couple of things up. I'm speaking as myself and not for the rest of the collective.

First off, we somehow never got the message from Muddy Waters looking for help and support. When we found out indirectly that this was the case, one of our workers actually went down to the cafe to apologize and let them know that we were here to help, but that communication never led to anything. I'm not sure if the R&B worker ever spoke to a Muddy Waters worker, or if the space was too busy at the time.

It's true that running a cooperative keeps you really, really, really busy. We make minimum wage plus tips and don't pay ourselves for any management work, which is hefty (let's see - there's bookkeeping, ordering, event booking, personnel, menu, scheduling...). Honestly, we're always happy to take time out to help other people wanting to start worker co-ops or change their current hierarchical structure into worker co-ops. I personally believe that many of us are striving for a world where EVERY business is run as such. We've helped other people before, and of course, there's no reason we wouldn't help Muddy Waters as well.

We're still here for whatever advice or support you need. You can e-mail us at the booking address: redandblackbooking@riseup.net.

As for the people who think we're elitist or other things... well, I won't be able to change your opinion by posting a comment on a Portland Mercury blog. I'm sorry you feel that way, but having been a patron of the Red and Black for several years (before I ever worked there), I have to wholeheartedly disagree. The cafe has changed *A LOT* since I first started going there four years ago. It's a completely different space now, though the political and union roots have never left, only strengthened. Maybe some day you will feel differently about the community space we have offered for 9 years (and counting!).

Thanks for reading,
- turtle