Comments

1
Hooray Dan Saltzman!
2
I am relieved that Dan Saltzman is finally making an impression of being shrewd and independent, as well as compassionate. That Jethro Tull concert must have made its mark.
3
Perhaps this question has been answered in past posts, but it's a big one in my mind:
Why do we even need a new baseball stadium?

Have you ever BEEN to a game (of any sport) at PGE Park- it's always half empty! It seems like a monumental waste of money to build a new stadium that will probably be empty most of the time. Why have I not heard anyone suggest repurposing the Coliseum as a soccer stadium and leaving PGE Park as-is? Has Major League Soccer been popular enough in other, larger cities to really warrant new stadiums?

My gut reaction is that this entire endeavor is a waste of time and money. I briefly worked at PGE Park in 2004, and I couldn't believe how empty it was at most games. I would truly be surprised if an MLS team actually attracted enough fans to make this all worthwhile.

But perhaps I'm not paying close enough attention and other people already know these answers. Matt Davis, please tell me!
4
Thanks nickeyrobo. Great comment. Took some words right out of my mouth.

From what I understood a few months ago, there was opposition to a new stadium within Lents.

Repurposing MC for soccer seems pretty novel.
5
nickey - the best estimates come from the Seattle team. When they were in the same league as the Timbers, they had even smaller attendances up there than the PGE park average. This year in their first MLS season, they sold over 20,000 season tickets. So if the question is "are there going to be enough people going to MLS games to be worth it?", the answer is certainly yes. (as an aside: it'll make it a much better stadium for American football games as well, such as PSU)

The more pertinent question is whether there's enough Beavers fans to be worth building a new stadium for them at this time, or whether to just kick them out of PGE park with no replacement built for them (at very least until the economy improves). Their standard, and so you'd assume their fan base, won't be increasing from all this.

The pertinent choice, mostly ignored by the Mercury and critics of this whole deal, isn't whether to renovate PGE park, but whether to save the Beavers.
6
Wait a minute, are you saying Jerry Glanville is fitting into this picture now? Jesus, maybe our celeb-obsession deserves this.

I thought one of the points of this whole debate is that spectacles can't save economies (we'll see about the Blazers).

Why can't PSU still just play at PGE as-is?
7
Put me down for thinking a new baseball stadium to the Rose Quarter makes a whole lot of sense. But, I'm a baseball fan and live in NoPo so its a quick MAX ride for me. I'm not stoked about going to Lents to watch a game that isn't near my house or an easy commute after work.

Also, note that PGE was built as a multi-purpose stadium, hence the huge seating area - which as correctly observed - sits half empty for AAA baseball. All the new proposed Baseball stadiums will have a lot less seating capacity, therefore a smaller footprint. Think 2500-5000 seats in the new stadium vs. 20,000+ for PGE park.
8
Ah, is the idea of a baseball, or any other kind of stadium worthwhile? Well. Local bloggers have been tracking attendance at the recent Beavers games. Last night, 350 people showed up:

http://bojack.org/2009/04/tonights_portlan…

And Paulson is talking about a stadium for seven to ten thousand! As for whether stadiums themselves make money, economists don't think so:

http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/Blogto…

"A new sports facility has an extremely small (perhaps even negative) effect on overall economic activity and employment," says a landmark report by economists at the Brookings Institute, written in 1997. "No recent facility appears to have earned anything approaching a reasonable return on investment. No recent facility has been self-financing in terms of its impact on net tax revenues.”

But all this is forgetting about those crucial other benefits, the intangible "WOW CITY" stuff that makes people proud to call a place their home. You know. 12 lane bridges. That kind of stuff.

http://www.portlandmercury.com/portland/wo…

Seriously. City government is almost prepared to admit that MLS won't make any money. But at least we'll all feel better. In a year where council is struggling to pay for basic services like the cops, closing a fire station, homeless and addiction services are facing the chop. At least we can watch a soccer/baseball game!
9
Well, thanks for answering the question, Matt.
Here's another one:
Is there yet any organized citizen opposition that you are aware of? Where do I sign up?

Also, I repeat one of my first questions: why not repurpose the Coliseum as an indoor soccer stadium? It's effing huge!
10
Cheers Matt! Jack Bog is a moron. One day he's going to not agree with you...probably sooner than you think and you'll probably regret quoting him as some sort of actual reporter.
Early season minor league baseball games typically never draw well in Portland or anywhere else for that matter. Fact
12
Soccer will work in Portland. I am thankful for the Sounders who have paved the way for us. Of course, they actually have decent people running the team up there. I am not sure if I like having the Paulsons own our team. Minor league baseball is not working in Portland, and a new baseball stadium won't change that.
11
"Is there yet any organized citizen opposition that you are aware of? Where do I sign up?"

Not really, although it's always been a surprise to me that the idea of MLS wasn't referred to the voters—who would, I imagine, roundly reject it. Perhaps you could start a popular movement of some kind? Although I should warn you that the Timbers fans are likely to respond with personal attacks instead of sticking to debating the real issues.

http://www.portlandmercury.com/portland/ha…
13
Agreed, Matt. Timbers fans have been acting like babies. They are also some of the worst sports fans I have ever seen. They act like they own the stadium and should be allowed to do whatever they like. I can't even bring my kids to Timbers games because of them. Best case scenario: MLS comes to Portland, and we ban the Timbers Army from the stadium.
14
Matt, I think this whole Paulson scheme is bullshit, but you never know what the hell you are talking about.

So I'm torn.
15
nickey - I don't think the Coliseum is big enough for a full-size (100 yard by 60 yard) soccer pitch, surrounded by stands. The ice hockey rink size is 66 yards by 28 yards. So assuming the same stand dimensions as now, it won't fit. A baseball field won't fit either.

An MLS team coming here is going to happen (whether Matt likes it or not), due to the simple fact that it will make more money than the current Timbers / Beavers setup. The cheapest way to do it that has been proposed so far is to redo PGE Park. If you want to start a campaign to kick the Beavers out of town completely (which is the certain consequence of not building a new baseball stadium somewhere or other), feel free... I'd be very tempted to support you...

Just don't fall for the bull from people saying the question is whether to support the Timbers or not, because the Timbers aren't going to be affected by any decisions that get made from now onwards. The slanging match between Matt & others against the Timbers Army is just an amusing but irrelevant and pointless sideshow.

(Full disclosure: I've been to three Timbers games in my life, and I know as well as anyone that the standard of play in MLS is only marginally less sh*t than the current Timbers league. But I'm not going to let my personal prejudice get in the way of common sense. Unlike certain commentators / 'journalists'.)
16
Yes, this deal will get done whether you like it or not, Matt.

I just bought my 2009 Timbers season tickets this afternoon.

I've never been a season ticket holder before, but because of this deal I've finally pulled the trigger. I'll be buying them next year as well so that I can be toward the top of the queue for 2011.

There are plenty more where I came from.

Thank you Sam, Randy and Dan.
17
Matt,

It is YOU after repeated attempts (by myself and others) to inform you of the facts of the proposed deal, what MLS is all about, attendances in the USL vs MLS, the history of soccer in this town etc who has engaged in personal ad hominem attacks without regard to facts. You consistently get the story wrong. You misquote people. You quote "a friend from England" as a source and fail to acknowledge what he said was patently false. You have waged a one man campaign without regards to reason or fact and have relied on emotional "potholes, kids and homeless!" arguments when you know damn well that the proposed funds for this project could never be used for "potholes, kids or the homeless".

And to think, when Shawn Levy introduced me to you I thought you would be an honest actor and try to report reality. I tried for weeks and months to provide the facts and reports you asked for and to show you empirical evidence. You didn't give a shit about that and never did. You have exposed yourself to many in this process both in City Hall and in Portland politics as to what and who you really are.

I've learned my lesson.

I also think you will learn yours soon as well when you realize that the horse you have been beating so steadily has been dead for days.

On top of that, you have never explained why you supported the U of O $200 million dollars taxpayer funded basketball arena but don't support this project.

Finally, YOU didn't report that Adams was postponing because of Saltzman the freaking Willamette Week did. You dishonest hack.
18
See it all comes down to facts. Which ones do you care to follow. They get twisted both ways always. Jack Bogdanski twists everything to whatever he wants. Matt cites him because his view on the whole thing is the same.

I don't know where Matt thinks the personal attacks have come from unless he's referring to someone digging out a post on his personal blog where he rah rah rahed his hot wife Sue for getting a $200 million dollar publically funded stadium to work in Eugene and didn't write one single article on it being a taxpayer waste. U of O has historic Mac court. They want to quit using the very historic Pit. OMG, OMG, etc, etc...

So I guess that was personal.

Matt's "reporting" on this issue has been piss poor. This is how it works. He writes an article full of false statements. His article gets shredded to pieces and his sources are rarely anything more than a sham or what some old guy muttered at him on the street. He refuses to correct statements that he has made.

Because its about something a lot of people care about when people lie about that people get upset.

Its sort of like Dick Cheney. He lied, we all knew he was lying, we called him out on it, and even though everybody knew he had lied he kept repeating the lie. Granted that was about torture and WMDs but I've called him a lot worse than I've called Davis. Davis still has a bully pulpit where he gets to run his little smear campaign.
19
Your problem Fin is that you report fiction as facts.

Your "facts" to date:
Paulson paid the old debt off,
Paulson is paying the old debt off,
Paulson is paying the future debt off...
even though Paulson only pays rent, which is less that the annual cost of keeping the park open.

Another fiction: players are paying the debt off through taxes on their wages (at the same rate as every other wage earner in Oregon.)


"you know damn well that the proposed funds for this project could never be used for "potholes, kids or the homeless"."
...More Finnegan fiction. You know damn well that most of the funds come from property taxes, which certainly would fund roads and kids.
20
Put a referendum to the people about whether or not to get a sports team? Great idea! Then we wouldn't have that anchor that is called the Trail Blazers! No one watches them anyway Basketball is such a second rate sport compared to baseball anyway.
21
The hot, salty tears of soccer boys are even more delicious than the hot, salty tears of the "I thought Sam was sustainable!" kids.
22
Remember when Matt Davis wrote a piece about Scientology in April 2009? Timely!
23
"More Finnegan fiction. You know damn well that most of the funds come from property taxes, which certainly would fund roads and kids."

Yeah...like the spectator fund, which can only be used for...gasp...stadium related things.

"Paulson only pays rent, which is less that the annual cost of keeping the park open"

It's because of the Glickman deal, which wasn't examined as closely as this deal, wasn't entered into by Merritt Paulson, wasn't brokered by this city council etc... It was a dumb deal. Minor league baseball can't sustain itself in a stadium that size. Without Paulson would have an empty stadium and nobody paying rent because anyone else would have moved the teams.

24
"...without the city also resolving the issue of building a new and better home for the Portland Beavers"

Paulson sounds more and more entitled to me. Why do we owe you and your flailing business a damn thing? Why does the city have to build the Beavers a better home? If owning this team is a viable business, why don't you seek private financing to build their home?

You'd think from his tone that WE'RE asking HIM for $80 million. I think he really feels he's doing us a favor. Hey Merritt, thanks but no thanks. You can keep your big favor.

The fact is that he's a shitty businessman. Most team-owners are, because most teams lose money. He wants us to make up his loses because his business is and will be unprofitable. If we're going to be handing out millions, why don't we at least give it to good businesspeople?
25
"Without Paulson would have an empty stadium and nobody paying rent because anyone else would have moved the teams."

Frankly, I'm starting to favor that option.
26
Glad to hear the truth by Smiley. If we listened to him and other disciples of his, we'd all have the answers, even if the questions don't really apply to them. Smiley, you should be happy, apparently one of the biggest "boondoggles" has been slowed down, but apparently you won't rest until Paulson in run out of town. Glad to see that you have your goals and priorities in line, I wonder if our owner was somebody else if you'd come after them with such vitrol.

And to the person who referred to the TA as some of the worst sports fans ever, guess you've never been to a real sporting event, because you might just realize that the TA provide an atmosphere unequaled in most sports. And we aren't all just about the Timbers and MLS, but this space doesn't have enough room to talk about the wonderful things the TA does for the city.
27
"Yeah...like the spectator fund"

No, like most of the money, which would comes from property taxes.

And yes, losing Paulson's $1 million per year rent payment would be better than losing the $200 million dollars that it is looking like this stadium deal is going to cost after interest is added in, especially since the city will rent PGE Park out to whoever comes after Paulson.

Even with Paulson's $1 million annual rent check, the city is now losing $2 to $3 million dollars per year on the stadium. The new deal Paulson proposes gets the city about $600,000 more in rent from Paulson, at a cost of $10 million per year to taxpayers. The best idea financially is for the city to get out of the sports subsidy racket.
28
Here you go...since Davis is citing Bog I had to do a little remembering from a cat fight. You can all find it in the archives. He's citing a guy he specifically called out for inciting racism resulting in the entire Mercury staff being banned from his site. Amy Ruiz kept rubbing...so I imagine that's where his real vitriol towards her now lies.

Davis calls Bog racist

http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/2007/0…

Amy rubs it in some more..

http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/2008/0…

Just type in Jack Bogdanski and racist into the search bar.

Way to cite a stupid racist Matt.
29
@GK107
Don't take my word for it. The documents detailing these costs, incomplete as they are, are located online at:
http://www.portlandonline.com/omf/index.cf…

You probably will need to have your parents help you with the math. Be sure to ask them about the term "amortization" and "interest" when you throw fits about how $87 million can become $200 million dollars. In reading the soccer message board, none of you knotheads seem to be familiar with the concept of paying back a loan.
30
Rational people: "The soccer deal is dumb and will lose the public a bunch of money, for the following reasons...."

BlackedOut: "Matt is a poo poo head! Nya nya nya!"
31
Nah...I generally like Matt's reporting on anything but this one issue. I've repeated that several times.

I just find it funny that the Mercury is riddled with plenty of employees and ex employees ripping Bogdanski for using half truths, leaving out facts, etc... and here Matt is...citing him as some sort of authoritative force.

And Blabby, there have been plenty of rational responses from the soccer crowd, Dwight Jaynes - what hates soccer but supports this deal, Torrid Joe over at Loadedorygun, and countless others.

Near as I can tell a bunch of NIMBYs aren't for it. Of course if that homeless shelter they're whining so much about not being funded ends up in their NIMBY neighborhood they will instantly want it moved somewhere else. Don't believe me? Just wait till the crowd in Laurelhurst realizes they want to change 39th ave to Cesar Chavez Way. The NIMBYs will be out in force for that one.
32
Sweet, sweet pubic process.
33
"I just find it funny that the Mercury is riddled with plenty of employees and ex employees ripping Bogdanski for using half truths..."

The difference between the whining that The Mercury does and the whining that the Merritt Paulson fans do is that The Mercury complains about the half that isn't true.
34
"The Mercury complains about the half that isn't true."

Jack?
35
One thing that really bothers me is how BlackedOut and Finnegan are always stumping for Paulson. As Smiley pointed out, they keep getting caught in lies. And BlackedOut has the audacity to compare Matt Davis to Dick Cheney. Thou doth project!

I am beginning to wonder if they are paid by Paulson. Finnegan has mentioned that his day job is a political consultant. There is was a recently written article about his MLS to Portland efforts where he brags about his political experience. Finnegan and BlackedOut, is it possible for you guys to envision a way for the MLS to come to Portland without the city getting ass-fucked? I have never seen you even consider for one second the myriad of other options that people have proposed. It is always "Paulson knows best!" and "Everyone else is ignorant and stupid except for us!" Are you a soccer fan or a Paulson fan? I am a soccer fan and want the MLS to come to town, but you can do better than tooling for Paulson. This is going to go down as part of the legacy of the Timbers, and I don't like it. It's embarrassing.
36
Hatzman, take my avatar... please!
37
Compare people like Finnegan and BlackedOut to Brian Libby. Brian has been well-mannered and professional. I am proud that Portland is populated with people such as himself. BlackedOut and Finnegan, who are representing the Timbers side of the argument, do nothing but insult people. Their excuse? "This is the only way to fight the opposition!" Watch and learn. It took Brian Libby a mere two weeks to rally people and save Memorial Coliseum. What have you guys accomplished? You are making things harder for us, not better.
39
One of the differences between adults and children is that adults can disagree with each other on some topics, but agree on others. Case by case basis.
40
Wow, this has the feel of a riot after a soccer match, without the crushed throats, unfortunately.

MC would be a great place for a soccer stadium. After having spent some time at PGE park during my years as a soccer parent/devotee, I find it hard to believe that PGE park wouldnt fit inside the MC structure as is. Perhaps the building can be extended eastward if necessary to make a soccer pitch fit. (Although that might make the golden mean folks get a wedgie.)

All the luxury boxes could have views of the city over the water- let rich fans pay handsomely for a piece of Portland's beauty.

I have no comment about baseball. I find it stultifying, and dislike the way the players are packaged like sausages and look like they have been taking steroids. Give me Petit any day, and i will kiss the television screen.
41
"It took Brian Libby a mere two weeks to rally people and save Memorial Coliseum."

The MC is far from saved. Saltzman said he's nostalgic about the place but not opposed to getting rid of it once they examine all the possibilities. In the end it still may be the MC site. *shrug*

"BlackedOut and Finnegan, who are representing the Timbers side of the argument, do nothing but insult people. Their excuse? "This is the only way to fight the opposition!"

I don't speak for Finn or Merritt Paulson for that matter. I don't think I've personally insulted anyone but Jack Bogdanski...oh and Jasun Wurster but that's just cause he plays back. I actually have a lot of respect for him because he has the balls to be the spokesman for a shadow organization. I will call someone a Jack Bog sycophant when they repeat whatever Bog writes everywhere else.

Bottom line is I like sports. I see teams within a city as a rallying point for the community to get behind. They're a place where politics and stupid petty fights get thrown out the window and the community unites. I think that's evident with what is going on with the Blazers right now.

People cry about us not having MLB. Well, we probably could have had MLB and NFL before Seattle if they had built the Delta Dome back in 1964. At the time the NBA was held on about the same stature as the NBDL now...if even that high. It was a joke of a boutique sport that more people attended because of the sideshows than the actual game. The city built the MC with no real tenant but did win the old Portland Buckaroos hockey franchise in 1960 when the stadium was finished.

If you can tell me that you honestly don't think the Blazers have a positive economic and community impact in this city then fine. There is no sense in arguing that the future MLS franchise could have that same impact a few years down the line with you. Couple that with the city getting an unbelievably good deal in this and it should be a no brainer. Some look at it as a terrible idea, but I guess we're gonna disagree on that. I will still maintain this is the best deal for a sports franchise any town will see in their lifetimes. Take it or leave it and I'd rather take it.
42
BlackedOut, do you even read what people write, or do you assume that anyone pointing out your faults is your enemy? I said I support the MLS coming to Portland. I don't like the way you keep lying about the plan and attack people personally, and now you backpedal in classic politico style telling you "respect" the people you smear. Please stop commenting on all these blogs, and get someone with more sense and manners to represent the Timbers. We don't have any more time to waste.

And don't tear down Memorial Coliseum! I don't understand why the Timbers supporters have made that their rallying cry now. I support the Timbers by going to as many games as I can when I don't have family commitments. I would own 4 season tickets if I was able to bring my family, which I can't because the Timbers Army who supposedly cares so much about the team make the game-day atmosphere unbearable for families. I want the MLS to come to Portland. I do not want to tear down Memorial Coliseum. The Timbers do not need to be associated with this travesty.
43
"I would own 4 season tickets if I was able to bring my family, which I can't because the Timbers Army who supposedly cares so much about the team make the game-day atmosphere unbearable for families."

Ahhh I see. So you don't like the TA. Eh...fine. I don't find it any worse than the student section at U of O at Mac Court. If you don't like it fine.

"I do not want to tear down Memorial Coliseum."

I'll just let Dwight Jaynes explain this to you. He has far more experience with that building than you would ever hope to have and considering Brian Libby hasn't been inside the thing Dwight Jaynes has more experience than him. I doubt you'll listen though. Also, try to keep it in mind that Jaynes doesn't like soccer and he isn't a member of the TA.

http://www.dwightjaynes.com/rick-adelman-w…

He calls out the small interest group that wants to save the MC here.

http://www.dwightjaynes.com/portland-the-s…
44
Nickrobo,

Maybe if you got some fucking exercise you would understand that sports was not so evil. Stop being such a fat ass and learn to enjoy that organized sports in not a bad thing, you stupid cow woman!

Please wait...

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