who wants to start the band "Anarchist Pouty-Faces" with me?

Well, look. It would be honest to put up a sign saying "No police allowed", or to refuse service to uniformed police at the counter. But having sold coffee to the cop, Red and Black owes that customer the same seating rights as any other customer is allowed. Langley's action had nothing to do with anarchist principles and everything to do with petty bourgeois arrogance. (And since Red and Black is operating as a small-business establishment, a degree of petty bourgeois arrogance should come as no surprise.)

I'd like to see those two operating under conditions of actual anarchy. Road warrior they ain't.

Anarchists calling a press conference?! Ha ha ha ha ha ha. You guys remind me of people who pretend to be pirates.

I think we're going to need a Truth and Reconciliation Committee before we really have some healing here.

Or, maybe some "PR 101 for Anarchists." Class one: when you're caught being stupid, shrill, petty and dickish, DON'T KEEP DOING THINGS that portray you as stupid, shrill, petty and dickish.

What asshats. Hopefully the R&B goes out of business and these bigots end up working at Hot Dog On A Stick.

How did he afford that shirt on an anarchist's salary?

Nice shirt and tie combo on Pouty Anarchist #2.

http://victoriataftkpam.blogspot.com/

She plans on serving coffee to uniformed officers Tuesday morning.

I really like how all of the television laden brains of suburbanite mercury readers are weighing in on what is and isn't anarchist when they haven't a clue as to what the ideology espouses.

Take a quick note here: When trying to be witty, don't talk about things you're ignorant about.

Oops, forgot this is the mercury where hack writers and totally oblivious commenters are trying hard to create the least informative environment known to the western world (yes, you all compare favourably with glenn beck in that respect).

YOUR ANARCHIST TEARS ONLY STRENGTHEN MY INDIFFERENCE TOWARD YOUR SITUATION!

Refusing service to cops is not akin to racial discrimination in the same way getting hassled by cops for being an "animal liberation or environmental activist" is not akin to being killed by cops for being black and/or mentally ill.

Choosing this kind of conflict with the po-po belies a rather weak survival instinct. Don't think there aren't any number of cops who wouldn't love to create some kind of havoc with these guys, and they could pretty much do it with impunity. Imagine the 911 call.

It's a "win - win - win" situation.

The Oregonion writer and conservative Christian soccer mom from the burbs who is promoting herself through this is getting lots of publicity.

Here is a sample of her writing (Do not let Dan Savage read this):
http://blog.oregonlive.com/writermom/2009/…


The cop was not denied service at Red and Black, he was given his coffee to go, before he was asked to go with it.

Red and Black have seen a surge in support by Portlanders.

The boycott by conservative suburban Christian bootlickers isn't going to hurt Red and Black at all since she only went there that one time. In fact it will help them out.

@cyoung Your caps lock and inane posting on the topic make your indifference less believable.

Here's a good idea, if you're indifferent toward this cafe having been recieving increased business lately, without any gun-toting thugs in blue, on top of being all over the news diseminating their positions, then why don't you demonstrate that better by going back to soaking your brain in bong-water and X-Box like the good suburban consumer that we all know you to be :)

"In No Way Comparable To Racial Discrimination" - Oh, except that it is in fact comparable, in many ways. Whoops, your bad.

"She referenced organizations such as Generation 5, an anti-child abuse group, that use alternative processes to justice, such as public exposure of the perpetrator and incident."

This seems like an incredibly bad idea that would almost immediately result in abuse and violent escalation. They may have well as suggested public burning of witches and vigilante lynch mobs.

(See? Even without pointing out the obviously racially motivated examples of this sort of "alternative justice" leading in fucked up directions in the past, the ends are scary bad.

It's one thing to take issue with abuses of authority by cops and to push for reform, but it's a totally different thing to claim we should do away with the police altogether. That's a pretty solid way to guarantee that anyone else in the conversation will be ignoring your braindead, poorly thought out ideas, likely until you die in a hilariously stupid fashion.)

Side note: I love this entire controversy because this is the first time I can remember where a group is so bafflingly full of crazy that they unite almost the entire Mercury readership in a "how are these people still allowed to use up our oxygen?" sort of way.

It's fucking heart warming that we can all laugh and point at the nutsos together! Who wants to make out?

They have the same right to throw out a cop in uniform than one of those fancy places has for throwing out some hipster anarchosyndicalist with more buttons than brains. Thems the breaks.

I love the idea that "cop" is a separate race. What is the genetic origin of the "cop" race?

In further evidence that no press is bad press, I went for lunch to R&B on Saturday and it was the busiest I've ever seen it.

Brilliant marketing. The Mercury should get paid ad space for these Blogtown write-ups.

The cops in this town make a lot of people really uncomfortable while they're minding their own business and not committing any crimes. That said, it seems normal to me for the owner of a coffee that caters to people who feel uncomfortable with the police being around to ask the cop to leave. I'm not an anarchist, criminal or law breaker but I still don't eat or drink at places where cops hang out.

I hope nothing bad happens to the place and I hope to find more "cop-free' places to relax at around town.

@Earnest "Nex" Cavalli: Yeah I totally know what you mean! I like really hate it when those weirdos make me feel like I am supposed to care about like whatever, I mean ya know? Like, all I really want to do is like stuff my nose with coke and go to some trashy indy shows until my parents like finally break down and buy me that condo I asked for.

Ugg, I just hate political things like cops and cafe's and stuff! Hey anyone seen my PBR and purple hoody?

Loknaar, if you met the cop in question out of uniform, you might think he's a pretty nice guy. Then he puts on his uniform and he suddenly makes you uncomfortable? A lot of very nice people are uncomfortable around cops because they represent authority, and lots of people apparently can't handle authoritative people.

The guy in the pink shirt looks like Sheldon from Big Bang Theory.

Hey now Jillybear!

For the record, my parents gave me a TOWNHOUSE when I was 19, and any cocaine that may or may not have found its way into my snoot had to thumb wrestle the bags of prescription drugs that are permanently affixed to my face like a Hippocratic bag o' oats.

I respect your desire to return snark toward someone whose entire career is built on a solid foundation of snark (and boning anyone who could possibly benefit my career, naturally), but if you're going to take the time to do it then at least paint me as the PROPER BREED of uncaring hipster asshole!

(Also, your cynical use of the apostrophes in my nom de internet was just mean. For that I ALMOST called you "Jillyjerkface," but I'd like everyone to note that I decided, in the end, to be the bigger man here. You're welcome Jillopotamous. *hugs n' kisses*)

Does anyone else find it hilarious that the people supporting R&B's action keep pointing out the uptick in business they've received since this story broke, as if that proves that they did the right thing?

Man, markets are so smart, eh?!

I'm looking forward to all the anarchists throwing in the towel tomorrow, since the market has very clearly spoken when it comes to your ideology.

Oh well, there's always that one coffeeshop!

"A person can choose to be a police officer... you can put on the uniform or take it off"

A person can choose to be [Muslim]...you can put on the uniform or take it off.

A person can choose to be a [drag queen]...you can put on the uniform or take it off.

A person can choose to be [fat]...you can put on the uniform or you can take it off.


Discrimination doesn't always pertain to race.

from Smiley: "The cop was not denied service at Red and Black, he was given his coffee to go, before he was asked to go with it."

Isn't that like your boss saying "You're fired" ten seconds after you say "I quit"?

I love how the Red and Black supporters seem to equate anyone that disagrees with them to either being a coke-addicted trustafarian hipster, or some kind of ignorant backwoods suburbanite. Rather telling, this narrow-mindedness.

Awful lotta honkies in this town to be tossing around "suburban" as an insult.

That, there?

Thats a braaaaaaave tie.

@Commenty Colin: No, but you know what I do think is funny, when the rightwing christians and the hipster-rag mercury readers are indistinguishable in both ingnorance and argument.

You want people to waste their time with ethical and philosophical arguments that will just be ignored by dim-wits here? Besides it is way funnier to make fun of you twits than to actually engage you, I mean, who cares what you think? It's just fun to read your ridiculously ignorant squirming on the internet. I mean clearly if you wanted to hae a dialogue about right, wrong, ethics philosophy etc, you'd have don't some reading on the topic and maybe sought out legitimate sources of discussion, but in fact you're here, the portland mercury, which means that you are (with a very few exceptions) intellectually worthless as a person. No loss to us if you don't understand.

Just one request though, keep the laughs comming and we'll keep feeding you trolls for as long as it remains hilarious.

Fatboy,
Good catch. I was going to say he's a spittin' image of Jonathan Slavin, the guy who played Byron on Andy Richter Controls The Universe (one of the greatest prematurely killed-off shows ever).
http://www.chud.com/articles/content_image…

@blownspeakers

No, giving someone a cup of coffee and asking them to leave is nothing at all like firing someone.

One's manner of dress is a Constitutionally recognized form of speech. And as with curbside Christian evangelists, screaming children, aggressive Greenpeace signature gatherers, white power activists festooned with swastikas, and yappy people who just don't know how to use their “indoor voice,” I am glad that R&B chooses to maintain a respectful atmosphere in their fine business by telling uniformed officers that they are not welcome inside to broadcast the very intrusive message that their uniform projects.

@ptwonfun A bit of context: back in the 80's we tried this shit, dude, and it went over like a lead balloon. Now you want to revive it for a new generation? Nahhhh. We'll stand back and watch the "Anarchists" crumble like their predecessors. Meet the old boss, same as the new boss. The one life eats itself. PC Circular firing squad.

Oh, and no one ever said that we are smarter than you, or better educated than you, or even better dressed than you, or they, or whoever. We just think that the Anarchist philosophy is kinda silly--not harmful, just kinda silly.

@ptownfun

Go back and read what you just wrote. You just joined in on what you complained about.

Go look in a mirror and say "Tag, you're it, you ignorant twit."

John Langley lays it out there so even a simpleton can GET IT, and yet we have all this unnecessary Tea Party posturing that has gone far beyond being silly to being a total farce, as all these people who swear they'll never patronize The Red & Black would be stumped to have told anyone it existed before this. So, it's time to move on to something else like "police brutality" and "abuse of power" issues that need addressing far more than who drinks coffee and where....

Just why exactly does the R&B's clientele get so nervous at the sight of a uniformed police officer, anyway? If, for whatever reason, they're trying to avoid the police, a coffee shop might not be the best choice of venue. This is the first and last time you'll hear me say this, but I wouldn't mind seeing this place close and be replaced with a Starbuck's.

Yeah. It's in no way tantamount to racism. It's just fuhuhuhcking stupid. "Heeyyyy, maaaaaan. I waaant you to leave, maaaaan. My customers don't feel comfortable. Waaaaah." I will rub patchouli on my asshole so they can eat it out.

FOOD COMES FROM PORTLAND!!!11!1!!!

Cops represent oppression. A lot of activists, anarchists or not, have had negative run ins with the police and as we've seen in this city they have targeted the homeless, people of color, and those with mental illness. Police are the ones who've enforce discrimination not the ones that are discriminated against.

I don't always agree with anarchists but I support this decision.

@ Smiley -- please go back and read my comment. I wasn't equating "giving someone a cup of coffee and asking them to leave" with firing someone; I was saying that it's asinine and fucking ridiculous to ask someone to leave as they are already in the process of leaving -- much like telling someone "you're fired" after they've already said "I quit."

If the cop was already leaving (i.e., ordered a cup of coffee *to go*), then asking him to leave only served to make Langley look like a douche.
Even more so than claiming he didn't want the cop's business yet keeping the cop's money.

"I really like how all of the television laden brains of suburbanite mercury readers are weighing in on what is and isn't anarchist when they haven't a clue as to what the ideology espouses. "

Actually sir, some of us here know quite well what the ideology espouses, and still disagree strongly with it. Some of us don't own televisions, either. I know, way crazy, right?!?!

Here's the thing: See, when I was a teenager, I was a crust-punk, just like that gal (guy?) with the Aus-Rotten t-shirt in the picture there. I had plenty of cool Nausea, Crass, Conflict, Disrupt, and Naked Aggression patches on my clothes, among others. I played bass and sang in a crust band, and wrote all the lyrics myself. Aus-Rotten even played a show in my guitar player's backyard. So did Logical Nonsense. Both were definitely high points in my life at the time. Needless to say, I was pretty into the crust-punk scene for much of my later teens.

Then, a startling thing happened, right around my 20th birthday. Instead of just blindly believing everything I read in the liner notes of Ebullition and Profane Existence releases, the sloganeering lyrics of my favorite bands, and the regurgitated and half-formed quasi-political gibberish my friends spouted, I picked up some books with different viewpoints, and (gasp!) read them.

I read Plato, Aristotle, Hobbes, Locke, Hume, Bentham (oh no, the 'panopticon' guy that Foucault didn't like!!! ruuuuuuunnnnn!!!!!!), Mill, Descartes, Nietzsche, Hegel, Kant, and many others.

You'll never guess what happened. It dawned on me that my friends, and virtually everyone else I'd met in the crust-punk scene, were flat-out wrong about some very basic notions regarding political philosophy, humanity, and governance.

Not only were they wrong, they were utterly unable to consider a viewpoint that was different than their own (unless it was endorsed by one of their cool punk-rock heroes), and immediately hostile to ideas that contradicted their beliefs.

Ooooh, and now I think we come to the heart of my post. Anarchism, like any other political ideology, is a system of beliefs. You know what's funny about beliefs? They're often not based on any real facts or evidence, and people tend to like to hold on to them even when contradictory evidence is presented to them. It's called confirmation bias, you know.

Here's the thing: people who sincerely endorse anarchism as a viable project on which to base human interaction are often dogmatic about that belief. So much so, in fact, that they are essentially indistinguishable from religious fundamentalists.

Anarchists who also happen to crust-punks and vegans are even worse: take the exclusionary and insular attitude of the punk-rock scene (you poseur!) and add to that a rigid, dogmatic, and uncritical acceptance of a political ideology, and the judgmental and irrational attitude of hardcore vegans, and you have yourself one incredibly obnoxious human being. Oh, and maybe sprinkle a little confirmation bias and group-think on top of the rest of that mess, and you've probably got yourself the entire ownership of R&B, and most of its clientele.

So, in retrospect, Mr. Andy Capital - fuck you. Some of us know exactly what you imbeciles are about, and we're not afraid to call you out on your stupid, bullshit beliefs, which, for the record, aren't all that much better than the fat, SUV-driving, fast-food eating red-blooded American's beliefs.

Have a nice day!!!

A cop represents a certain organization that consistently profiles and harasses people in the "anarchist" community for nothing more than say, walking down the street looking like a troublemaker. Red and Black is into a worker owned co-operative, they're all about community meeting, and not necessarily anarchy, although many of their customers are.
As far as the similarity to racial profiling it is this:
A Jew refuses to serve a Nazi or a black person refuses to serve a member of the kkk.
I realize this is going to an extreme, but so were previous comments. They aren't quite the kkk but the portland police are notorious for their brutality and unjust profiling, and their organization seems not to care much about it. It is good to have a place where a corrupted authority does not automatically have free reign.


@ blownspeakers
I have yet to see fat muslim drag queens tear gassing children, attacking people in wheelchairs, or shooting dogs. Also, it didn't say he ordered his coffee to go, it was given to go.

@blownspeakers: The officer ordered a cup to go, and then stayed. At that point the establishment had every right to ask him to leave.

Where I work, we frequently serve "to go" orders for customers that are inappropriate to be in the cafe. (for a variety of reasons, including intimidating or threating clothing and logos, and carrying weapons in a safer space).

While I personally would have made a different decision here, I absolutely support and defend Red and Black's right to make it. And I completely honor their reasoning.

The PPB MUST be made to understand that the community has deep, valid, and long-standing reasons to fear them. The onus is on them.

And I will personally offer to buy officer Crooker a cup of coffee anytime, anywhere. AS LONG AS HE IS OUT OF UNIFORM AND UNARMED.

Crooker might or might not be a decent guy. I don't know. I've never met him. I do know he should not be ridiculed because he's a cop. It's an honorable and (unfortunately) necessary profession.

We need good cops. We need to praise and honor good cops. We need more good cops. We also need less bad cops, and yeah, we've got 'em.

Unfortunately the Police Bureau has a pretty impressive track record for killing people who are black, or mentally, ill, or homeless.

Most of the force turned out in "I Am Chris Humphreys" t-shirts, showing explicit support for one of the worst cops ever to wear the uniform.

The PPB basically told the city that they would have also kicked James Chasse to death.

I suggest to the Red and Black staff to make t-shirts saying "I Am the Red and Black". (modeled off the "I Am Chris Humphreys" and "I Am James Chasse" shirts exept, duh, in red and black)

I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

@Snagglepuss:
Well congrats, you either read or remembered the titles from a Phil 101 course. That of course makes you superior to us mere mortals. (well, it DOES make you superior to about 50% of the posters on blogtown)

Other than the fact your post makes NO FUCKING SENSE WHATSOEVER, other than that, kudos dude on your insightful, yet obfuscatory example of one-hand typing.

Lose the tie poindexter.

I just came for the television laden insult. I haven't heard that shit since 1993 man. Way to dig up the retro.

@ Snagglepuss: You have been nominated for Comment of My Day. Well done.

I second the nom for Snagglepus.

@ rabblevox - Thanks for the (almost) compliment. I'm actually about two terms away from finishing my degree in philosophy, so mayhap it stands to reason that I actually have read what I cited, and considerably more, too. I suppose I could name-drop philosophers I've read all day, but I don't think it makes me better than anyone else. That'd be about as stupid and annoying as some music snob name-dropping bands.

Still, coupled with my experiences as a teen in the hardcore/vegan/anarchist/crust-punk scene, it lends me, I think, some perspective on the general attitudes and sentiments of some of the R&B owners and customers. Therefore, I think I just might have contributed something worthwhile to the discussion at hand.

If my post didn't make any sense to you, then I'm assuming you don't know who/what crust-punks are, and what they have to do with anarchists and/or vegans. Rather than bore you with a long post explaining who/what they are, I'll just recommend that you talk to one of the many crusties busily sewing patches of his/her favorite punk rock bands into his/her all-black clothing, and asking people for money (awesome way to fight the system, eh?). Try Pioneer Square, they like to hang out around there.

@Snagglepuss: So you had a few patches and a dirty shirt, and then you read a few books from a philosophical equivalent of the 'golden oldies' and decided that anarchism was some how incorrect? I'll ask, but I doubt that you'll deliver, what precisely were the arguments that convinced you that anarchism was philosophically incorrect? Having read most of those thinkers, as have most of the anarchists that I know, I find it difficult to believe that you derived a counter argument to an ethical philosophy from any of those, save perhaps Nietzsche whose arguments seem less like arguments and more senseless proclamations. So I'm game for this "how much philosophy have you read" antic, because I actually believe that you have neither read those thinkers, nor that, by virtue of having worn dirty clothes once, you actually understand the arguments of anarchist thinkers.

Let's try this, first lay out a standard syllogism describing the philosophical tendency of anarchism, and then show me where it is attacked by the thinkers that you listed. I strongly doubt that you can accomplish the first with any success, that is to say without building one hell of a strawman, and the second will be astonishingly humorous. What will you use? The republic? Leviathan? Politics? I hope that after reading, if you actually did, the greatest hits you were able to make it through the 102 class where the critiques were offered, but we'll see about that wont we?

The legacy of racism and making a political point by throwing out an authority figure from a cafe are very different things. Discrimination based on race, gender, etc. perpetuates systemic power differences. Civil rights legislation attempts to eradicate individual discrimination of the kind that maintains privileges for some over others in a system, institution, society, etc. Clearly, individual discrimination against a police officer is not symptomatic of some larger structural disadvantage for police officers. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. I think the Red & Black’s response to the officer was because of his representation of systemic injustice, which the Portland Police Bureau has certainly manifested in its record of racial profiling and excessive force.

Ah ha ha! Snagglepuss for the win! Andy Capital and his ilk FOR THE LOSS. You are in the wrong here, fools.

@iwouldprefernotto: You have a fairly bizarre view of win and loss... Oh wait, you're here... reading the mercury... n/m continue to enjoy your lobotomy.

Andy, save it.. you have no idea who you are criticizing and have only exposed your own narrow-minded ignorance. So once again, you.. for the loss. Suck it, loser.

@iwouldprefernotto: Stop talking and start showing then, because whoever you are, you have thus far failed to demonstrate significant signs of rational thought.

btw, if you're going to posture so much, my challenge to snagglepuss is open to you as well.

@ andy, no one cares about arguing with you over the merits of your ideology. It's like you want to come in here and say ALRIGIHT MOTHERFUCKERS GRAND FUNK RAILROAD IS THE BEST BAND THAT EVER FUCKING LIVED PROVE ME WRONG IF YOU CAN'T PROVE ME WRONG I WIN AND GRAND FUNK IS OBVIOUSLY THE BEST.

People don't want to argue about it, because it just starts a tired, never ending circle of disagreeing with each others premises. Terminal boredom ensues.

I don't know what you should do to get people to see the Grand Funk of political ideology the way you do. Maybe try not being a knob?

Just spitballing here, the way TV learned me to.

@Commenty Colin Actually the idea is less to find agreement and more to find whether there is even one amongst your intellectually deficient compatriots that even has a clue as to what is being discussed. There's no certainty yet but the outlook is fairly bleak, and hope for intelligent life amongst the mercury readership is dwindling.

@just sayin': Well I haven't made any proclaimations of wins/losses yet so perhaps that very fact makes the mercury troll feel it is bizarre. (Because clearly the jerry springer runner-ups that typically haunt this place cannot conceive of not declaring their own side victorious after receiving an intellectual thrashing and having otherwise no retort)

However thank you for wishing me enjoyment of my lobotomy, it is not particularly enjoyable sacrificing small portions of my frontal lobe every time I have to read mercury articles, or even worse comments, but I have done my best to continue stimulating the rest of my brain with more intellectual indulgences to stave off as much loss as possible. I hope that you are doing the same, but I doubt that.

Just to note, I spoke at length with Officer Crooker after meeting him at the r & b May 18 and he was not aware of the policy of the establishment. He is new to town. He was not looking for trouble in any way. He was just a nice guy looking for a cup of conversation and I was the one who addressed him in a friendly conversation.

http://www.corneliaseigneur.com/part-2-whe…

Best regards, Cornelia Seigneur

John Langley is right: the situation is not comparable to racial discrimination. It's like kicking someone out for wearing a burqa.

Nice!

Please continue to bring me entertainment with your rambling insults to each other.

Wait, is that Langley or a giant vagina? I can't tell...

@ rich bachelor: If every coffeeshop owner tried to end every annoying/boring conversation that took place in their establishment, there really wouldn't be very many coffeeshops left before too long.

A coffeeshop is understood by most people to be a place where the community can gather over coffee and snacks to work quietly, discuss whatever, etc. When you start treating it like a velvet rope that only hip, black-clad idealogues can get into (or remain at, after polluting your till with their currency), you're probably being a dick about it.

I was reading the story below and it got me thinking about this thread:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_ca…

Seriously, if people in the Gulf Coast states aren't boycotting BP, what makes anyone think people will stop going to R&B?

link to "Get to Know Your Police Officers":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xd_zkMEgkI

oops!!! Let me try that again...
link to "Get to Know Your Police Officers" pdf:
http://media.portland.indymedia.org/media/…

Wow. This andy fellow has his head so far up his own ass he can see daylight.

I think if I move out to Portland, I shall have ceaseless fun antagonizing the self-important anarchists.

Last November the Membership of the Portland Police Association marched on City Hall to object to Officer Chris Humphreys being disciplined for shooting a 12-year old girl with a nylon shot-bag round from a shotgun. This officer had previously been involved in beating to death a homeless, mentally ill man, James Chasse.

According to a Nov 24 article in *The Oregonian*,"Portland police rally to support officer in beanbag shotgun case" the hundreds of police that attended the rally wore t-shirts that read "I Am Chris Humphreys".

In this way the Portland Police have collectively said, explicitly, "I would do the same as Chris Humphreys has done." They have told us to consider all of them as the sort of person who would fire sometimes-lethal rounds at an unruly 12-year old and stand around talking with each other while a homeless mentally ill guy they just gang-stomped lies dying on the pavement.

As far as I know, the Red and Black are the only one's who have taken the cops at their word. Good on them. I'm going to make a point to drop by their establishment more often.

It's on like Donkey Kong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CkV9JWQIJk

@ Andy Capital

No, I don't think I'm going to bother to do that. While it's nice to see that you're apparently also somewhat well-read, and that unlike many of your compatriots that I've met over the years, are seemingly capable of levels of discourse more complicated than scratching slogans onto bathroom stalls (which is where I often find a great deal of anarchist, PDX peace-punk screeds), attempting to logically dispute your position would be a waste of time.

And why would it be a waste of time? Because if you know at least as much as I do about philosophy, rhetoric, and logic, then you know that philosophical discussions aren't ultimately aimed toward arriving at an answer - they're aimed toward proving a prior assertion false. Which, when you think about it, is rather odd, since every single proposition you or I could think of can be construed as false with reference to any number of logical or epistemological qualms, not the least of which would be coherentism, foundationalism, and even (if we really want to go that far afield) the myth of the given.

In other words, constructing and refuting syllogistic arguments is a quasi-masturbatory exercise that serves only to solve the problem that the construction and refutation of the syllogism creates in the first place. It's not much better than a non-sequitur, and little different from trying to solve a spelling error by reference to the Quadratic formula.

Here's the thing. I don't think that engaging you in a dialogue by attempting to construct one of the many possible arguments for your position (and there are more than a few), and then disputing each premise, would change your mind, even should I somehow magically be capable of delivering the most perfectly devastating and irrefutable critique of them. This is the central point of my earlier post: you, and the people at R&B are so certain of your beliefs that you, much like a religious fundamentalist, are inoculated against reason and criticism. You're either too stupid to realize this, or so ridiculously smart that you're easily capable of thinking yourself into a rigid and dogmatic pattern that is incapable of sensibly considering alternatives.

Think about this for a moment. If you're advocating for anarchism, whether the brand endorsed by older figureheads like Bakunin, or more contemporary forms proposed by someone like Chomsky, you're still part of a fringe intellectual movement. Let that swirl around in your mind for a moment. Fringe movement. Fringe, even to radical, post-modern, post-structuralists like Foucault and Deleuze. Here's that word one more time: FRINGE.

And, if you believe even the slightest bit in causality (which I'm assuming you do, since like, you know, you probably don't expect that gravity won't make you fall to your death should jump off from a building's roof), then perhaps you ought to ponder the reasons why, the cause of why, your fringe position isn't better received even in intellectual circles that likely ought to be sympathetic to such a radical position. Put more crudely and superficially, if there really were some serious merit to your position, it seems likely that it would receive greater consideration as a possible, viable means of organizing human groups.

And, aside from considerations like the ones above, there are possibly other factors at play in your adherence to the anarchist position. When was the last time you stopped and looked around at all of your anarchist friends? Did you notice the striking similarities in appearance, clothing styles, aesthetic tastes? How about the similarities in background? Maybe even a similarity in how they all came to the anarchist or crust-punk scene? You already know that human beings have a predilection for organizing into groups. Has it ever occurred to you that you're just as susceptible to this predilection, and that groups such as the one you travel in congeal because of various cultural and aesthetic similarities, rather than converging around some transcendent socio-political truth about the human condition? Again, more crudely, you're part of a subculture, a group, and just like other groups (such as religious groups, for instance), you (quite irrationally) think that your group is somehow right, somehow uniquely sanctified, and somehow has a direct line to an important human truth.

While I could certainly be all kinds of wrong here, my experiences with crust-punks, vegans, and anarchists over the years lead me to these conclusions. Like the Foucauldian criticism of the modern age, I don't think that you arrived at your current system of beliefs in a rationally ordered, thoughtful, or scientifically-minded process. I think that, instead you did this, as illustrated by a passage in Nietzsche's 'Beyond Good and Evil':

"They all pose as if they had discovered and reached their real opinions through the self-development of a cold, pure, divinely unconcerned dialectic... while at bottom it [their opinion] is an assumption, a hunch, indeed a kind of "inspiration" - most often a desire of the heart that has been filtered and made abstract - that they defend with reasons they have sought after the fact"

And that's all I have to say to you. You can most certainly call foul all you want, and whine about straw-men, ad hominems, and even fallacies of equivocation, because, frankly, it'd be just as much of a waste of time as my bothering to respond to you was.

"Where I work, we frequently serve "to go" orders for customers that are inappropriate to be in the cafe. (for a variety of reasons, including intimidating or threating clothing and logos, and carrying weapons in a safer space)."

rabblevox -- exactly how is clothing, or a logo for that matter, "intimidating or threating [sic]"?

"I have yet to see fat muslim drag queens tear gassing children, attacking people in wheelchairs, or shooting dogs"

orenda917 -- so, is that why they kicked Crooker out? Call me ignorant, but I wouldn't think that he would have had ample time to do all that in the time it takes to order coffee and start towards the door.

@Snagglepuss: Sigh, how boring... You know I never once stated, and I made this clear to Commenty Colin as well, that I was interested in debating the virtues of anarchism being correct or incorrect. Clearly that would be a greater waste of my time than all of the mercury commenting I have done thus far. No the purpose was to determine the veracity of your claims, which if anything is still unclear. I'm not unimpressed by the fact that you were able to digress into a philosophical tangent worthy of at least reading.

However I am still as certain as I began that it was not with a clear understanding of anarchist arguments that you were forced by nature of the arguments made by historical thinkers to abandon the philosophy, more likely you as it seems were a punk, one who didn't have a conception of the philosophy beyond punk and then after entering college determined to "grow up" and began to declare anarchism to be a philosophy of the immature, never yourself understanding it in the first place. This is what my request was centered around determining and as yet it is still my view. As such I retain the claim that none here understand anarchism in a genuine sense and are ignorantly making claims against it, most of which are false prima facie.

As well I'm sure that you are familiar with Hume's guillotine so I don't need to discuss the "fringe" issue I hope, I mean how many people adhere to any ethical philosophy? Most just read the bible, qur'an , bhagavad gita, or what have you, and pay little attention to even what those books say let alone philosophical ethics or ideology. So who cares how many, and how fringe? That isn't a description of philosophical worth, nor are the numbers of any ideology stagnant so basing a value judgement on "fringe" is like claiming that because there is more nothingness than somethingness that nothingness is clearly the more accurate way to be (or not be as is the case). Being is such a "fringe" state it is clearly of less value.

In any event the reason I called your response boring is because if you had actually been reading any anarchist thought you'd know that by and large your critique of subculture and whatnot is practically plagiarised from anarchist philosophy. (though I doubt you would actually do that) Yes if there is one thing anarchists are better at than deconstructing opposing philosophies it is deconstructing our own, of course you wouldn't know that because apparently all of the anarchists that you have ever met are seemingly by your account just crust punks spanging or pompous buffoons that themselves likely do not understand the ideology. So to me your attacks are mundane and boring, not only have I considered them a million and one time so has every other anarchist I know of. Go ahead, ask someone at the red and black, chances are they'll chime right in either in agreeance or with a counter argument of similar weight.

So there you go, you basically came up with a dry old critique that has some merit, but by and large is true of everything, so what is the intent of observing it? The nietszche is a fairly superfluous tangent, I think nietszche is more boring and less original than most cheap fiction but that's a personal preference.

Too bad, I was looking forward to seeing someone on this site with a clue as to what anarchist philosophy was, but as with diogenes I'll keep searching.

I wonder how everyone feels about the criminals listed in the link below:
http://media.portland.indymedia.org/media/…

ok, let's try that link again:
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2010/06/3…

@ Andy - You are funny, albeit unintentionally. Start "showing" in a comment thread. That makes a lot of sense. Apparently you have declared yourself the gatekeeper of what is and what isn't rational thought? I wish you could see how full of shit you sound, in your ivory tower up there. Why would I attempt to engage in any kind of serious discourse with someone like you? You seem to have read some books, and good on you for that. However, you do fail completely at recognizing sarcasm or basic web jargon, which leads me to believe that you are sorely lacking in other crucial areas of human development. There is a lot more to critical thinking than regurgitating what you read in books. Therefore, I must declare that once again the loss is overwhelmingly yours. Good luck with your heaping bowl of FAIL!

@FTW - Nice, way to completely miss the mark! If you think this brings me anything other than you are sadly mistaken. Come back when you do not suck so much at the internet. I must give -1 for your misinterpretation, and -5 for being extremely BORING. Done. Next.

..other than entertainment, that should have read.

I agree with what Andy wrote
His his comments seemed more "in tune with reality"
Just saying...

Hey to all you cop haters: we don't care that you hate us. We'll still be there 24/7 to save your arses when you need us, with a smile on our faces. =)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjn-Bo72mrQ…

For those that are actually interested in the practical considerations of Anarchy and the relationship with the state.

John Langly has no real power, other than throwing out police officers from his dusty little hippie joint. Those who have no personal power, who get kicked around at home make up for that in the work place by abusing their power.

He's just a dorky loser who thought he'd be a big guy and ask an officer to leave. When asked at one point what he would do if there was ever an altercation at his restaurant and he needed help, he said as I recall, that he would "call some friends" and they would come over and help. LOL.

You know when a dufus like Langly, or his ilk, who are not trained in conflict resolution or police work try to take the law into their own hands and have their "friends" come over to help, in a potentially violent situation, they run the risk of putting many peoples lives in danger, including their own.

I bet if push came to shove, this little nerd would go running for the phone and would dial 911 just like every one else. He got his pathetic 15 minutes. Good for him, now go back to the rock you crawled out from under you little Omega pip squeak. What a dorky loser nerd.