Comments

1
Apparently PPB is using up their inventory of 'regular' police-grade pepper spray and have ordered a new shipment that is 7 times stronger.
See http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2011/11/occupy_portland_pepper_spray_e.html
2
Pepper spray, and other use of force, against passive resistance is certainly worthy of review and discussion, but this article lacks contexts and uses several misleading statistics. For example:

Scoville Heat Units are a measure of hot or burning taste and do not really translate to effect on the nose, lungs, or eyes. In this case straight multiplication doesn't work. Police spray is very similar to the spray you can buy at any sporting goods store, it just comes in bigger cans.

Also dying after being pepper sprayed does not equal being killed by pepper spray. All those people were probably also placed in metal wrist restraints, sat inside police cars, drank water, ate food, and did dozens of other things in the minutes and hours before their death. The fact that they did or were exposed to something does not mean that thing caused their death.
3
Safer than bullets.
4
more dangerous than unarmed cops
5
Wait...how many of these protesters weren't ordered to disperse before being pepper sprayed? How many of them really had no idea that it might happen?
6
@Reymont, I don't think the fact that they used it, or warned people they'd use it is up for debate. I think there's a mounting (and necessary) argument over whether or not pepper spray is being ethically used by police.
7
Maybe we should just engage the police outside the range of pepper spray.

For example, a .223 or a 7.62 bullet can accurately hit a target beyond 100 yards, and I think pepper spray is totally ineffective at that range.

If Officer Fuckface down at UC Davis thought that by pepper spraying people he could potentially start a firefight and actual insurrectionary activities (think assassination) - do you think he would have so carelessly deployed a weapon capable of longlasting harm? Do you think the administrators at the college would have allowed such a horrific deployment of a chemical weapon? Do you think the government would be complacent with such heavy handed tactics to disrupt people simply sitting there? Of fucking course not! The authorities would be afraid of the response, as they should be, when they engage in careless, dangerous behavior.

There are fundamentally two types of governments in this world: one, where people fear the government, and the second, where government fears the people. Which type of government should we strive for, and how do we take steps to get there?
8
@FC - There are CLEAR cases where the police are NOT using it ethically. But....when the "victims" have every reason to know that it's coming, I have a hard time feeling sorry for them...for some reason? Still thinking it through, obviously...

If two guys at a bar get in an argument, and go outside and around the corner and agree on "let's do this!" should we really feel terrible if one of them loses the fight? That seems very analogous to a protester who's been warned multiple times that they WILL be pepper sprayed, and given every opportunity to stop breaking whatever law they're breaking before they're sprayed. Is one of those people really a victim, and one really a bully? Or is the whole thing just a deplorable circus?
9
the cops should kill all occutards
10
I had the good fortune to hear Kamran Loghman speak about his development of the weapon. And I think he set a pretty reasonable bar for use of the weapon: you use it when people are rioting and when there is clear and real danger to the populace at large. I strongly believe that deploying the weapon on peaceful protesters is unethical and works to suppress free speech through fear of state power.

And I don't agree with you that your bar fight situation is analogous. We would assume that each participant in your bar fight are on somewhat equal footing physically, i.e. that either can emerge as a victor in the fight. In the situation of using pepper spray, we're talking riot cops vs. (mostly) harmless protesters. In this instance the power dynamic is disproportionate. I would feel bad for the loser in a bar fight if the power dynamic was equally disproportionate as it is the case with riot cops vs. protesters.
11
@Fruit Cup - Why would you assume that about the bar fight analogy, and why would it matter? The key point is that both sides knew what they were getting into.

A little guy who chooses to fight a big guy in an alley doesn't seem like a victim to me. And a protester who's been warned over and over by police in full riot gear that they're going to get pepper-sprayed also doesn't seem like one. They both chose to stay and take it, knowing full well exactly what was about to happen. Sure doesn't make either beating "justified" or "right," but...I guess it just makes it hard for me to see either one as an undeserving victim.
12
Then we'll have to agree to disagree over very fundamental differences we have. Shrug.
13
The good thing is that police-grade pepper spray *is* available to the general public, if you know where to go. Since it's been used illegally against peaceful protesters, there's no legal barrier to those of us (properly prepared) to defend ourselves accordingly. I speak only for myself and by no means on behalf of Occupy, but if I'm attacked, I will respond with whatever force is necessary to eliminate the threat. As I have every legal right to do, blue costume or not.
14
Reymont, if the protestors are not doing anything wrong, they should not have to leave OR face being pepper-sprayed. That's the point. Just because you've been warned doesn't mean that it is justified. Your logic is severely flawed.
15
@ Reymont. Unless the Police use loud speakers, or what has been deemed as the Ice Cream Truck here in Portland to warn of possible use of chemical weapons (they don't actually say it is pepper spray) - they do not go out of their way to inform people. If they do at all. I've been at quite a few events and I can tell you that if you get a lot of people together, it is hard to hear what people say, especially if no one is completely silent.

Furthermore, the use of riot cops in clearly non-riot situations is pretty absurd. None of the Occupy events/actions have been close to rioting. If you want to see rioting, how about checking out sports fans after a big game has been lost. Vancouver for example. Also, just because there might be a warning - does not mean that the protesters are doing anything illegal.

Please provide your sources of proof that protesters have been warned 'over and over again' about the use of pepper spray.

Your logic is pretty flawed. So if I warn you over and over again that I'm going to hit you in the head with a rock because you are in my way, I can then say my actions are completely justified?
Thanks for the tip.


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