Savage Love

On the Fence

Comments

1
I pretty much shrug at this deep desire to get married. On one level your commitments don't change in the least with a marriage. You'll either commit or you won't, the paper doesn't mean jack shit. On the other the divorce rate is so high, why not just be realistic about the whole ordeal and say: Let's plan on living as much of our lives together as possible. If it doesn't work out, let's move on.

Why gays want to be a part of a failed social institution is beyond me. It can't be tradition, because tradition ostracizes them. It can't be religion, almost all modern major religions forbid it in one way or another.

My advice to the couple is to ignore any pressure to get married (or not) and just be a couple. Perhaps encourage other gay couples to ignore the institution and live happily without a certificate than means jack shit. Also, as a male, I have to add that the institution of marriage (male/female) is heavily weighed against you. You will almost certainly lose more if the marriage fails. It is never in a male's best interest to marry, unless he's gold-digging.
2
Oh, person with unintelligible login name, I actually feel sorry for you. You obviously have never loved and in turn been loved completely. I'm sorry. But it's not going to happen until you let go of your fears of someone controlling you and learn to feel the ecstasy of precariousness.

We gays want to marry because there are advantages that no amount of attorney constructed contracts can mirror. I don't want to have to show up at my partner's hospital bed with a bag full of contracts to make sure I can see her. I don't want her to have to go to court if I die to make sure she inherits our house without probate. I would like her to have my social security (if it's there at all) if I die before the ripe age of 65. If I give birth to a child, I want her to be it's parent automatically, no matter if I get transferred to Arkansas.

And most of all, i would like to be able to call her my WIFE with all the equivalent joy and sorrow and burden and nagging that the word entails. We've been together for 12 years and I think we've earned it.
3
Spartacus, you could NOT have given a better explanation.... It saddens me to no avail that there are still people in this country who just don't get it.
4
Wait, so love isn't possible without marriage? Better kick my mate of ten years out the door.

"But it's not going to happen until you let go of your fears of someone controlling you and learn to feel the ecstasy of precariousness."
When you get married someone DOES control you. You no longer have legal rights you did before the marriage. Not only that, something controls you, the government, through a series of laws and bylaws that say what you can and cannot do due to a contract.

"I don't want to have to show up at my partner's hospital bed with a bag full of contracts to make sure I can see her."
Nothing prevents that now.

"I don't want her to have to go to court if I die to make sure she inherits our house without probate."
You will have to under any state in this country, regardless of being married or gay, or at the least a fight with an attorney or two depending on her family and the will.

"And most of all, i would like to be able to call her my WIFE with all the equivalent joy and sorrow and burden and nagging that the word entails."
That is plain silly. Just call her your wife. What does this have to do with the legal definition?

Sounds like the reasons you have listed are fiduciary in nature, which was kinda my point. You want money from your partner. That isn't "love" Just say it! It's OK!
5
Wow, ?pqM)mH{5i*7V7wVNiH?tcvUk'j>tH\VF5!V+00HY?jgK7@iA<_(B0Mii*:@e9Iq, I love your comments on I, Annonymous and on Savage Love. So, you're against marriage, straight or gay, but you're all for crotch rubbing bums. That's great, and now I know just where you stand.

You are afraid of being financially responsible to someone, and you don't love anyone enough to take that leap of faith. You think that's being "controlled", but it's really making a commitment that you can't back out of. It's not that you "want money from your partner." You want to keep the home you've shared, and you want to protect the life you've built together. That is not just "love", it's more than that. It's becoming somone's family. Legally, to protect you from the stupid masses/lawyers/etc. You obviously have never tried to visit a same-sex mate in intensive care, and not be listed as a relative... you will not be allowed in to be with them in most cases.

If you and your "mate of 10 years" were to buy a house together, in your name, and you die unexpectedly, without a will, before your mate, and your family hates him/her and takes everything, and they won't let your mate pay final respects or even keep a few momentos, you don't care, 'cause that's just money, right? Who cares if old matey is out on the street, alone and forlorn? Not your problem. You're dead. Is that love?
6
Sure, it's love. I know this is incredibly difficult to understand given the societical norms and pressure you've grown up with, but I'm perfectly willing to will my money to my partner without a contract telling me to do so. See, THAT is love, not some ceremony. Not some government approved document or minister saying "yay, they be wed."

Anything involving a "leap of faith" is falling on dead ears here, tiethatbinds. "Faith" is for people who mumble in tall steepled buildings.

"but it's really making a commitment that you can't back out of."
That isn't a commitment, that is cosigned enslavement. Commitment is an act of trust. Marriage is the false assumption of trust (where a good 40-60% fail, realistically.)

Think of it from a logical standpoint: If you are in a relationship, you are *in* a relationship. The qualities of the relationship stand on their own two feet. It puts a completely artificial layer on a relationship to further "structure" it with an official ceremony, laws, and government oversight. It brings sheer terror to married couples that no longer love each other. They stick together regardless of their happiness, instead of simply living out the relationship.

I haven't gotten into the mistreatment of men within a failed marriage with kids. Another topic another day, but the odds are so heavily against men that I beg men to get vasectomies at age 18, lest they want to risk certain financial ruin and depression, no matter their love for their kids.

And yeah crotch rubbing bums I have no issue with. They amuse me. Because I rub my crotch and I'm somewhat successful, I identify. Hell, I even sometimes want to BE that bum. The I anonymous rant about the bum being creepy is quite annoying. Bitch, *you* are the creepy one.

Oh, one final point, this may give you some background. My mother left my father(they weren't married) for another woman, who is my godmother (as if that does anything for me, but I digress). I love all three equally. They each raised me. But none of the three think marriage was a solution, either. My godmother is now with a new partner, neither of whom want to ever get married, and have domestic partnership in California and are completely satiated/happy and have been for 15 years. They are in each others' wills and nobody in their family would dare ask to take control of property from the deceased side. THAT is love, and no marriage required, desired.

Finally, my own partner doesn't want marriage. Carry on. Agree to disagree?
8
Fine, marriage isn't for you. I fully and completely respect your right, and the right of all people who want to be serially monogamous. But the fact that 50% of marriages involve people who stay together FOREVER even in these "modern times" means that half of people want to make family together, for better or worse.

And here's news to ya, I am not profitting from my partner financially, if anything it's the other way around. I LOVE her enough that I don't want there to be any problems financially when I die. And when we bought our house TOGETHER we were told that the direct right of inheritance would be written into the mortgage but that in Oregon sometimes that goes into a funny gray area if somebody's...say...next of kin decides after they're dead that maybe this whole gay thing was the surviving partner's fault and decides to make things difficult. Try losing your WIFE and fighting to keep your house. Not fun.

And...if my WIFE (I can use that term but when I check the "single" box on my federal taxes or any other legal document--if I wrote it I would be committing fraud) should God forbid be unconscious at a CHRISTIAN hospital (Providence, Good Sam, Emanuel, Adventist, etc etc) and not able to convey her wishes I will most likely need to get my lawyer to see her.

So stay partnered. Enjoy your back door. I'm not asking for special treatment. I just want to have the same rights as my married straight brother.
9
I want my gay friends to have the same protections and rights as I and my wife have. Why shouldn't they? Because some church groups can't fathom a loving life long commitment by two people of the same gender? How freaking stupid! This level of discrimination is as horrid as Rosa Parks being arrested for not giving up her seat. This is just as dumb as having separate bathrooms for white and black people. Civil unions are a nice gesture, but not the same... and the separate but equal thing didn't work out for schools, so why do we think we can pretend it works for straight and gay people?!?!

I look back on the trials of the civil rights movement and I see the same stupidity going on now. How does a gay marriage diminish my hetero marriage? It doesn't... I'll be no less married because two men or two women are married too.

Let them marry with the same rights and plights as straight people have. Marriage, divorce, etc... why not?