Agree about the enforcing laws.
You may not notice it more, Matt, but don't forget - WE'RE NUMBER 1! WE'RE NUMBER 1!
It's not the 'city's' job to offer jobs, it's the city's job to foster a culture of positive, productivity and "livability," which is not done by driving away business and offering free needles, restrooms, day cares and picnics to junkie bums.

I love the op-ed. If more idiots would argue in favor of these stupid laws by lumping panhandlers, homeless people, and activists into one category it would help show the real prejudices and motivations of wanting such laws in the first place.

So thanks, Katie Gordon and Dennise Keitges! Your willingness to show your narrow-minded and self-interested beliefs only help the rest of us who aren't as stupid.

I'll bring cookies. Though I have to agree with Katie and Dennise about those glad handing, H1N1 spreading Mercy Corp/Green Peace spangers

Today on my way to work I said "no thank you" when a young man asked me for change. He called me a bitch as I was walking away. The end of the world? No. But I can tell you for the next hour my adrenaline was pumped and I was fucking miserable. It took every ounce of self control not to throw my (cold) coffee in his face.

I do find it embarassing that our city is a haven for these vermin. I am not proud of how "open minded" we are to empower useless people on the backs of the working mules.

When the people who work finally flee your tax base, who will you have left to support these parasites?

Yeah, because joining a Facebook group is such a raging indicator of involvement. [Logan likes this]

Hint: The jobs issue is directly related to the issue of panhandlers and the so-called destitute.

"Today on my way to work I said "no thank you" when a young man asked me for change. He called me a bitch as I was walking away. The end of the world? No. But I can tell you for the next hour my adrenaline was pumped and I was fucking miserable. It took every ounce of self control not to throw my (cold) coffee in his face."

Spartacus: I'm glad you commented. I, too, have been in a situation where a spanger has annoyed me and I've had to keep self-control. But you're not powerless in that situation. There are a few things you can do:

1.Keep your eye on the guy, call the cops and tell them you're a citizen downtown who's been menaced by a spanger. Since you clearly felt harassed, and the kid seemed intent on harassing you, there's a strong chance the officers will find a way to arrest the guy—whether it's for harassment or disorderly conduct, you name it.

I know you're going to say that would take a long time and a lot of your effort, but if you're as embarrassed by "these vermin" as you say you are, take the power back, on behalf of Portlanders. Let me know what happens, because if the cops are really interested in enforcing the law, instead of using the absence of the sit/lie to whip up fear, then I would hope they would give you the service you deserve. Justice isn't always easy, but a committed group of citizens like you could really change the picture down there.

2.Join the Facebook group and/or go out on the street at lunch time with a bunch of your co-workers, and have a picnic near where these kids normally sit. It's your sidewalk too, and if you show these spangers you don't want to be intimidated out of using it, I think that sends a powerful, constitutional message.

3.You could just wait for council to enact another unconstitutional law and be done with it. But I hope you'd prefer the city followed the law instead of enacting something illegal just because you're annoyed somebody cussed at you. You sound like someone with a lot of energy—how about using it to tackle this problem in a constructive way?

Where are these hyper-aggressive panhandlers people complain about? The never approach me.

Also, what fucking good did the Sit/Lie Ordinance do for these annoying editorializing twats on their MAX trips? You're allowed to sit down on the MAX, that's why there's seats there.

"The jobs issue is directly related to the issue of panhandlers and the so-called destitute."

I know there's a lot of unemployment, but there is no way you can actually back that claim.

Wow... Papaki... whoever you have been talking to that has visited Portland, they obviously A) have not been to San Francisco, Toronto, Seattle, or Cleveland lately... all of those places I have been to in the last couple of years, and all seemed to have more homeless "hanging out" on the street...
also, I would have to ask if the persons you are speaking to are aware of the fact that our fine state was just announced as #2... on the list as far as number of homeless people per capita... is that about homeless people moving here in droves? not if you believe the facts.. what it IS about is people not having jobs... (12.2% unemployment still?)

I'm more annoyed at the Greenpeace/Children/Mercy Corps/whatever than the homeless people myself. And I generally support those groups, they do make a positive impact in the world, but it has gotten old talking to them...

A few things:

1. The women who wrote the op-ed make Portland sound like some crime-ridden craphole. People like them need to leave Portland every once in a while, go visit other American cities (not to mention other cities around the world), and gain some perspective. Whenever I start to complain about life in Portland, all it takes is a visit to just about anywhere else in the US to remind myself that we have it pretty good here.

2. I visited Dakar, Senegal last summer and there were people with polio scooting themselves down the street with their arms because their legs are severely deformed. And it's impossible to walk down the street for even 10 feet without being asked for money by a dozen starving children with no shoes on and tattered clothes. The children hold their hands out to you for money, and will follow you for blocks and blocks. How would these two women react if they had to run lunchtime errands in Dakar?

3. The two women's selfishness and self-centered attitudes are repulsive. If it's too much trouble to say "no" to someone who asks for money, or to simply ignore someone if you don't even have the courage to utter "no," then you're the one with the problem. Someone being verbally or physically menacing is a different story of course, but the vast majority of people asking for money or cigarettes or whatever downtown are not menacing. If it's soooo much trouble, and stresses you out soooo much to say no or ignore someone, or to have to step over someone lying on the ground, then I feel for you, because your coping mechanisms are obviously severely lacking. Get a grip.

Excuse me while I go play a song for them on the world's tiniest violin.

I'm glad you posted this. The op-ed is completely f-ing ridiculous. I can't imagine a more pathetic and scaremongering argument. These people are scared of their own shadows. Stay away from people, they could get you! Especially strangers who look different and try to talk to you!

On the other hand, we as a society need to come to some accord about how we view homeless/street kids. These people's behavior, in my humble opinion, is not acceptable. It is not acceptable to ask strangers for money on the street. It is not acceptable to treat public places as your living room. Other people should be able to use and feel comfortable in public spaces. This is the dialogue we need to have.

It should not be socially acceptable to put money into the hand of an able-bodied stranger who approaches you and asks you for money on the street. And vagrants should be made to understand that public spaces are not theirs to monopolize. And they should get jobs or otherwise attempt to rehabilitate themselves, which means they should not be coddled. And we need to take responsibility as much as possible for the fact that when people fail it is in part failure we all share. We all should do more to show these utter failures at life a better way to live. And if they don't want to, well, we should make life as inconvenient and unpleasant for them as is possible (in a reasonably civilized way, of course).

End rant.

Matt,

I know you are trying to be fair minded, but I find your response irritating. You want me to have someone arrested for exercising their freedom of speech? Calling someone a name on a public street is not "harassment," it is expression. God forbid someone take away my right to call someone a profanity on the public streets. And the appropriate level of expression back is to pop someone in the mouth. But we don't play that way, do we?

And I don't really have time to have a picnic to combat the rising tide of the unwashed masses. I am WORKING downtown, not playing. You know who has time for spontaneous protest picnics downtown during their workday? People whose work is so unimportant to themselves or anyone else that their absence from that work would not make a damn difference.

and p.s. one judge deciding a law is unconstitutional does not make it so. that's sort of in the constitution.

"I'm also struck by how much the supposed problem is being over-stated. One would think that over the last two months, downtown had been overtaken by triffids. As it is, I have hardly noticed any change—and I live a block from Pioneer Square and walk through it probably three or four times a day."

Well, then consider yourself lucky/biased/oblivious - your choice. My girlfriend and I both commute to downtown on foot daily and have noticed a turn for the worse the past six months.

Reading The Mercury's whitewash of sit/lie fallout causes the same nauseous feeling I get watching Fox News.

I think the homeless are out more on the streets now than 6 months ago, not because of the sit/lie law or lack of it, but because the weather is nice, and quite frankly, standing around asking for spare change in the rain and cold doesn't sound like much fun.

I don't know if anyone has done a study or not, (it would be an interesting one,) but I expect that the law has much less effect on this issue than the weather or the economy, (in that order.)

"My girlfriend and I both commute to downtown on foot daily and have noticed a turn for the worse the past six months."

It happens every summer. Voluntarily homeless people move here when the weather is nice. They'll all move on come November. It may be worse this year but it's not unusual.

@spartacus:

The harassment/disorderly conduct issue depends on intent and given your description, I think would be easy for a district attorney to prosecute. But as you say, you're too busy to actually follow through on any of this indignation and do something about it. That's too bad. If only you had called the cops. I think you need to look at your own responsibility in this situation, or grow a thicker skin.

You're also wrong about "one judge." Two judges have found this iteration unconstitutional in Portland for one reason or another, and Judge Stephen Bushong said last Friday that there are probably several other constitutional flaws in outlawing sitting or lying on the sidewalk—citing supreme court cases out of Chicago, in addition to Portland's own old "anti-loitering law" from 1968 and 1970. Portlanders' liberty protections are pretty broad, he said.

@Around:

I think it should be legal to give money to able-bodied beggars, but I agree that begging should not be allowed to cross the line into menacing or harassment. See the comment earlier about beggars in Dakar! I also agree that this discussion about spangers needs to be had. But let's try to ensure that we stay constitutional. That's all I'm saying.

@spartacus "You know who has time for spontaneous protest picnics downtown during their workday?"

You know who has that time? People who have jobs. Because jobs are required to provide you with lunch breaks and sort of thing. That's when you'd have the picnic. Or is your job so shitty and unimportant that OSHA regulations aren't being enforced?

And you also seem to have an incredibly tenuous grasp of the constitution. Why don't you get back to telling 'Bama he's a Nazi and demanding Tort reform?

not wanting to be harassed by feral street kids while you walk to work doesn't make you a teabagger.

I worked in downtown Portland for 7 years and the best thing about no longer working by Pioneer Square is not getting hassled several times a day for change or cigarettes.

I've spent time in a number of big cities and I feel qualified to say that Portland's street population is exceptionally aggressive and annoying. However - "full disclosure" - I haven't been to Dakar, so what do I know?

Matt,

Thank you for your response to my comment. I am glad we agree there should be a discussion on the proper way to deal with spanging. I am not advocating a law banning spanging, as that would likely be illegal. I am advocating a consensus that giving money to able-bodied homeless, or otherwise enabling their lifestyle, is wrong, and something to be ashamed of. As is asking for money from strangers on the street because you are too dysfunction/lazy to work.

The law cannot always force us to do what is right. Sometimes we just need to decide for ourselves (and tell our fellow citizens when they are wrong). Don't give money to spangers. Its wrong. What's more, we should probably tell spangers that they are not welcome to ask us for money, and that we consider such behavior unacceptable.

"Where are these hyper-aggressive panhandlers people complain about? The never approach me."

@Graham

Try in front of the Carl's Jr. across the street from the Standard Insurance building. There will be between 4 and 8 of them with their pit bulls. One probably has a guitar. Hard to miss.

If your psyche is so frail and delicate that you get pumped with adrenaline for an hour anytime some loser stranger calls you a name, I suggest you walk down that street every day. Walk down it twice a day. Do it as much as you can, because you're never going to get anywhere in life if something as small as that can phase you.

Its is dumb to compare beggars in Portland to Senegal or some other third world country. For the most part in these countries people may be poor but they have too much pride to beg on the streets and they are out trying to earn money. Lets not forget how many other these people hanging around dowmtown also have drug and alcohol issues, something they are ultimately responsible for. It is not as though you give them a job or housing that they start to get their shit together. I have worked at an agency for street kids, drug/alcohol treamtnet programs and the ER. Across the board it was clear the more you offer the more they will take, catering and coddling is absolutely the wrong approach.
I was just back in Portland last month as I am currently living out of the country. I was suprised what a shit hole the downtown looked like and how entitled they were to take over entire sidewalks and have no reservations (or manners) about asking for money.

I agree that the Clipboard Beggars are far more aggressive and anxiety inducing than any panhandlers I've encountered (aside from one drunk, belligerent guy). If I see a damned clipboard beggar, I start planning how I'm going to avoid them, since they physically accost you. If I see some spangers, I can count on them remaining seated and accepting no answer or a "sorry" and leaving me alone.

"If my family or friends have had one observation about Portland when they have visited over the last three years, it's had nothing to do with the number of homeless, or how aggressive they were. It was, quite simply, that this city doesn't seem to offer many jobs."

Guess who is probably the foremost advocate for job creation in Portland, Matt? The PBA, genius. The people who want the sit/lie law. Moron.

I can't wait for your take on all this stuff once you have kids Matt. The first time you push baby out onto the street you'll resolve to be out of Downtown by month's end.

"90% of all apartments in Portland are controlled/managed by out-of-state "management agencies" who set requirements so high that they can't possibly qualify for housing."

LOL, care to tell us how you made up that statistic?
And what exactly are these high falootin requirements the poor bums can't adhere to, unlike everyone else in the city?

There is nothing illegal or unconstitutional about passing an ordinance that specifically targets aggressive panhandling. If our Portland city attorneys need examples, just look to Missoula or Santa Barbara for examples.

"It is not acceptable to ask strangers for money on the street."
one hopes you are never homeless and need money for a phone call to your father... something that actually happened to me...

"It is not acceptable to treat public places as your living room."
A) Pioneer Courthouse Square 'Portland's Livingroom'....
B) if you have no other livingroom, you are left with public places as your "living room"

"Other people should be able to use and feel comfortable in public spaces."
I am sorry you feel awkward sharing your public space with people who have no home to go home to but those are the breaks...

"It should not be socially acceptable to put money into the hand of an able-bodied stranger who approaches you and asks you for money on the street."
12% unemployment... what, another 15% 'underemployed' (like that isnt a low ball number...) good luck with that... our city has suffered from unemployment and a lack of affordable housing for a long time...back in to the 80s...


"vagrants should be made to understand that public spaces are not theirs to monopolize. "
sitting on the sidewalk and asking for money is monopolizing them? I REALLY should have gone to business school...

"they should get jobs or otherwise attempt to rehabilitate themselves"
back to the 12% unemployment again... not to mention that there are quite a number of homeless people that do have jobs... but cant afford a place to live...

"we need to take responsibility as much as possible for the fact that when people fail it is in part failure we all share."
hey! we agree! it is a societal problem when we allow for the cracks to become so wide that large amounts of us are falling thru them.

"We all should do more to show these utter failures at life a better way to live."
A) because someone is homeless does not make them an "utter failure"... they may be a good father, or a good worker... or good at any number of countless other things...
B) a lot of them do know how to live if given the chance...

"And if they don't want to, well, we should make life as inconvenient and unpleasant for them as is possible (in a reasonably civilized way, of course)."
so... if I dont agree with the circumstances you live in... can I make your life unpleasant and inconvenient as well? as long as I am "reasonably civilized" ? (by the way, the term "reasonably civilized" makes me choke... it reminds me of some sort of social burden of the rich to defend the poor benighted savages...)

"The solution isn't a Sit/Lie ordinance. The solution is providing alternatives for these people. Most Portlanders aren't even aware that the shelters in town are CLOSED during the summer. The homeless attempting to transition into homes can't find rental units in the city because 90% of all apartments in Portland are controlled/managed by out-of-state "management agencies" who set requirements so high that they can't possibly qualify for housing. "

There are A LOT of alternatives for "these people" it is a FACT that most many if not most of "these people" are too hooked on drugs and drinking to successfully trnasition to anything productive. There are more resources here in PDX for "these people" than just about anywhere in the US.

Why should people who go to work everyday be endlessly saddled with new and higher taxes to pay for new programs for people who contribute nothing to society? This is not to say that a homeless person can never be a productive member of society but the ones that are are doing it because THEY PERSONALLY commit to making an effort to help themselves.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, people.

There are an abundance of programs already funded for people who are willing to quit substance abuse and work hard at their lives and issues.

Enabling and entitling them further not only harms the productive citizens around the homeless, but the homeless as well.

It is time for personal responsibility and accountability.

Amidst the hyperventilating I haven't noticed spangers increasing downtown, and I've been wandering around for about 30+ years. Yes there are more in the summer.

Don't blame the recession on the kids. That's got capitalism backwards. That's socialism.

Just like raccoons here's the solution: don't feed them and they will go away. Really. Market forces are at work. Talk about this in your staff meeting. Make an agreement to not spare your change. Identify, isolate and intervene on the one putting out. Tell them there is a better way. Likely that person has a lost kid out there somewhere. Expect tears.

Feel guilty? Good for you. You have a soul. Now put it to use. Buy Street Roots newspaper. It's actually not that bad, not a pity purchase. Buy them whenever you see a vendor. So what if you get three or four of them - you're using market forces and giving a push in the right direction. You're a patriot.

What about the dirty kids who spang and are worthless hellhounds? Two ideas. One, tell them if they were selling Street Roots newspaper, you'd buy a copy. Two, if you're feeling randy about it, offer ten dollars for their Doc Martins. If they go to unlace them, lower your price to $5. Laugh at them and move on. More market forces at work.

"You want me to have someone arrested for exercising their freedom of speech? Calling someone a name on a public street is not "harassment," it is expression. God forbid someone take away my right to call someone a profanity on the public streets."

Was that intentionally ironic? It's the internet, so I'm having a hard time deciding. You object to throwing someone in jail for speaking their mind? Um... what if their mind is saying"spare any change?"

And you're worried that infringing on their rights might someday infringe on yours? Well, do you enjoy freely using public spaces? Do you enjoy laws which are consistent with the constitution?

Also, when before launching into the "all the homeless people are causing businesses to close" routine, one might consider that in the absence of any proof, it could just as easily be that all the business closures are producing a larger population of homeless people. Or that the two items are unrelated.

Causation correlation, yo.

"Well I guess most people are bitches then, BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GONNA GIVE YOU MONEY EITHER, ASSHOLE!!!"

"SAVE THE TANTRUM FOR YOUR MOMMY YOU FUCKIN WASTE O SPACE! HAS YOUR DIAPER BEEN CHANGED LATELY?"

"Oh sorry, I'll DEFINITELY give you money now that you called me a bitch, you WILY CHARMER!!"


Take charge out there. Take responsibility. Fuck all this asking the city to take care of it for you. When a stranger approaches you, you have a whole range of responses open to you. Let it be a conscious choice, and not just the result of programming you received, telling you you have to be polite at all times, and please everyone, and say yes. That's where the tension is coming from, because you feel that the correct response (especially if someone is aggressive or flips you an insult, jeez) is way different from what you were taught and what societal norms supposedly dictate. Especially for women, or so I've heard.

You might nonetheless decide to be polite or say yes, as a conscious decision of compassion for another human being. Or you might take them to task for what you see as their utter lameness, or simply rebuff them for the mere act of entering your space without authorization. There's a continuum of responses. Carry pepper spray if you're scared/vindictive enough. Carry extra money and smokes if you're compassionate enough.

Speaking of compassion though, spartacus, don't call the whole lot of them vermin. The whole economy is in upheaval and you could easily find yourself among those vermin soon. A lot of people are one or two paychecks away from the street. Okay, maybe as a homeless vermin you would work a little harder and/or be a little more resourceful than to just stand around asking people for money. I hope so. But then again you're asking the city to solve this problem for you, which in my opinion isn't so different from standing around asking strangers to solve one's money problems.

Do not even think about "killing birds," Matt. PETA's on your case already!

Also: Nice to see the Oregonian finally giving voice to the "two women who work at the same law firm" demographic. If I were in a law firm surrounded by law-firm douchebags all day, I'd be stressed out too.

Patrick,

I appreciate that you have sympathy for the plight of the homeless. I would like to impress upon you, though, that human beings generally must be accountable for their own actions. All I hear from you is excuse after excuse for why the homeless are victims. I hardly think this is realistic or productive. Nobody can fix the homeless, they need to fix themselves. All we can do is "help." Like a transition program, or a kick in the ass.

pdx97217: I think your post is terrific-well written and well reasoned. Presenting attainable market based solutions too! Nice job!

I noticed just now that most of the group that hangs around outside my office are just teenagers. Summer vacation. Probably live in the area. Not gross, just maybe a little dumb. I can see myself in them, well, I wish really because I grew up in the burbs where there was no public transit to the big city. Where are their parents?

I think maybe I detest a few of the spangers a little less today. Not all of them-the pit bull crowd can still suck it.

And the clipboard people? That's why we have headphones!

OK, really, your problem is NOTHING compared to San Francisco. Really.

Also: Donate some cash to this terrific organization that helps people transition into homes: http://www.joinpdx.com/

Seems like there's two different types of people being discussed here: homeless, and panhandlers. Not at all one and the same. I'd love to see a law drafted that would target panhandlers and reduce begging, without targeting the homeless.

Unfortunately, sit/lie didn't do that. It targeted the homeless as an attempt to target begging through a back door.

As part of that, the council could put signs up telling people not to give money to beggars - put collection boxes out for homeless charities instead (and while they're at it, start treating signature gatherers etc the same as beggars). Actually banning panhandling is impossible, but discouraging it is easy; and would ensure money going where it's actually useful (to the shelters, or treatment programs, or whatever).

I hope the council do continue to try and come up with a law that actually works, and is based on that middle ground. Because it might do some good. It just means taking a very different approach to the one that resulted in sit/lie.

Atomic, I have spent hours and hours outside of Rite Aid downtown to watch "traffic patterns" and listen as people were spoken to about Sit/Lie. a question that came up to me after a few days of this is:
when some walks in to a sotre and buys the items they came for, and then on the way out are asked for change... and give change... which the person (from what I can tell about 90% of the time) goes in to the store and buys something with the money... .why would a business complain? they are getting money that would have walked away...

People who have mental illnesses or a confounding of life circumstances who are temporarily unable to house/feed themselves are not the problem facing working Portlanders. These folks learn how to access services and get help.

Able-bodied grifters are vermin. They shit and piss in the street, harass people, and steal/bully/litter. How is that different from a dangerous animal?

And again, I must stress that the people who ACTUALLY PAY THE TAXES THAT SUPPORT THE HOMELESS, not those who go on and on about how somebody (else) really should, WORK!!!!!!!! Work is not an excuse for being busy. It is a real tangible thing, and for truly productive people their work matters. It's not about OSHA, it's not about choosing to take the time. It's not about goofing around on Facebook or the Mercury blog.

I work to pay taxes so that the police can make my streets safe for me, my family, and the tourists who bless us with their outside investing dollars.

Sorry to get off this now, but I have WORK to do.

@spartacus

So you're saying that you've got the time to be an asshole on the internet, but you don't have time to go outside and eat lunch? And that people who do have the time to go outside and eat lunch don't actually work?

And the assumption that people with mental illnesses are able to properly find the the services and help that they need... Um... Yeah... I call bullshit.

What else in your stupid little rant... Oh yeah... Do you know what a grifter is? A grifter is not a spanger. Learn what words actually mean.

Anyone who rants about how they pay taxes so that blah blah blah. That rant doesn't work. In case you weren't aware, even the spangers and mentall ill you seem to hate pay taxes. Anyone who buys anything anytime pays taxes.

You are a failure at logic and reason.

Do you know what does phase me? What bothers me? What crushes my soul?

Seeing young children high on heroin. Seeing them over the years progressivley become more and more entangled into the web of addiction. Not even able to light their cigarette because their cordination is so off, passing out while standing up, falling over, in and out of the concious.

Knowing that they are being taken advantage of by much OLDER experienced junkies that know how to keep them in their control.
Knowing that the "traveling youth" are actually prime targets for human trafficking and prostitition.

The people they are emulating, do not end up well. They do not come back more enlightened, and engaged. They have to sacrifice their very souls, to get a hit. Lie, cheat and steal. People they never thought they would become.

Knowing that if I let myself open my heart and care about all I see , try to help, I would become a sobbing mess, unable to cope. Perhaps turning to booze, or drugs...to ease the pain. Knowing it is not them, it is the drugs. But ultimately, it is their choice to break free.

I have had to harden my character, to become a different person, seeing what I have seen, and I do not like it.

I want to live in a world where people can freely experience the day, to accept the responsibility that comes with the freedom that we are all given.
Open your eyes. Experience Reality.

Dear Graham,

Yeah, thats good.. hate on a woman for being verbally abused on the streets and reacting to it in a way you wouldn't like.

Then hate on her for not knowing the bullshit terminology those in the know use for various kinds of mooching dirtbags.


All really relevent when you don't even know there's no sales tax here.

You sir, are the fail. Spartacus is just a woman who tries to get to work without being harassed.

I didn't see Spartacus specify his or her sex. I've been called a "bitch" plenty of times.

I drink the fact that you feel that because your opinion differs, it invalidates this persons. I drink it up!

Dear monkies,

If you think that just because someone isn't paying a direct sales tax means they're not paying taxes on that product... Well... then you're a blathering idiot. There are more taxes out there than just simply sales tax. By purchasing goods or services you are putting money into the pockets of people who then pay taxes; be they on payroll or property or what not. That money is getting taxed and the prices you pay reflect those taxes. f

Also, I fail to find any place where I criticized Spartacus's reaction to the name calling spanger.

You instead are made of stupid and lack of reading comprehension. Nice try, go back to the AOL chat room you climbed out of.

Toodle-oo.

Hey, maybe I'm alone here, but... I appreciate it when people ask me for money on the street.

I'm lucky enough to be paid more than I need, so I can generally spare some cash. These are hard times and I know there are plenty of people down on their luck who need the cash more urgently than I do. And it's a good feeling to help someone out.

Hey Al - I'll help pump up your low self esteem too - hand over the cash, you don't need it

Either Graham's web persona is much more aggressive than he's real life persona, or he gets beat up a lot.

I thought the exact same thing, CH.

I get spanged sitting on my porch, so I guess I don't really see what the fuss is about. Yes, it's annoying, but so are hypocritical douchebags. FYI, it's "fazed", not "phased". As in "Will's been going through a spelling nazi phase, yet he is unfazed by his own incorrect usage."

@jake Wooo! Internet tough guy, you go with that one. Good job!

And all y'all seem to resort to the idea that violence is the quickest way to solve a situation rather quickly. You know that scene in Fight Club where they're supposed to start a fight? That's what it's like in PDX. The odds of an actual fight breaking out are staggeringly low. Especially when the debate is over politics and you're not insulting some douche-bros's girlfriend or mom or truck.

The solution is just to avoid downtown Portland. Anything that you do not feed withers, and no I'm not talking about the bums, I'm talking about the businesses downtown. One day, there will be no customers and then no stores downtown; they'll move to a 'nicer' area to sell their stuff. Customers will follow.

Next, no bums downtown, or maybe JUST bums @ all of the social services that have corralled downtown. Some people have jobs down there, but with all of the vacancies and high rents, it could be an easy move to get away, or maybe not, who knows? My point is, vote with your feet. Stay away from downtown; it's just not worth it.

The cops and the bouncers and the clubs with the bouncers are lame, the smokes are too expensive and the neighborhood bars in every neighborhood in Portland are far cooler to hang out in than in downtown anyway, so why go downtown? If you have a sweet job downtown, then just deal with it or get nasty back at them like people from major cities do. Hell, if I even look at them like I'm about to act like where I came from, they usually just let it end there.

@jake Your theory would be true if it weren't completely bullshit. I would estimate that I get in shouting matches with people on the street on probably a monthly basis. It was particularly bad about a year ago during election season; there was one memorable incident with some Paul-tards at the Saturday Market.

Yet somehow I've managed to avoid getting my ass kicked during all this time... There was one guy in a truck who threatened me with a hammer, but nothing came of it. So your attempts to transfer your aggresion onto someone else in a wish fullfilment scheme will probalby remain unfulfilled.

As I've posted elsewhere, aggressive panhandling is not addressed by a sit-lie ordinance.

If you're sitting or lying, you're certainly not being aggressive!

Some people feel that even asking for money is being aggressive. If so, then it's a problem with people being too thin-skinned and passive.

And the professional charity panhandlers are 1000 times more annoying than some gutter punk mumbling "spare change" to you. When the gutter punk has enough for his 40 or hit, he'll stop. These people will never stop.