News Dec 8, 2011 at 4:00 am

Booted From Another Park, Occupy Portland Debates on the Movement's Future

Comments

1
To be an ineffective, annoying, and expense to the city - or to be a force for change?
That idea about shutting down ports, especially in this fragile economy, is just wrong.
2
The ports ARE Wall St on the waterfront. The only one's getting hurt are Wal-Mart, Mearsk, and Goldman Sachs. There's a strong mainstream media campaign against shutting down the ports for that very reason...
3
I thought I read we are talking west coast ports here? Ports, where the blue collar jobs are.
4
I was really wondering what your opinion on this might be, frankieb. Thanks for finally chiming in.
5
Occupy Portland, please stop. It's just sad now. All you're doing is being an expensive nuisance to the community at large. Thanks to the toll you've taken on the city's budget, a few friends of mine who work for Multnomah County may not have jobs next year. Was that the plan all along, put even more people out of work so they have nothing better to do than come to your rallies? Sure seems like it is with that idiotic plan to shut down the Port of Portland. Have any idea how vital trade is to Oregon's economy? Probably not.

Earlier this week, some occupier was interviewed on KATU, claiming that the movement needed, "a place where we can continue to organize political action". To me, that sounds like an office. Maybe if you didn't blow your money on t-shirts and the like, you could rent one.

Most economists agree that the basic sentiments of the occupy movement are legitimate. Yes, income inequality is increasing and our plutocracy isn't helping. However, your methods are completely useless. How is camping out and scrapping with cops every other week going to do anything meaningful? I'm talking tangible, measureable goals. You need to evolve or risk becoming even more irrelevant.
6
We should get together and come up with ideas to improve the economy. A fix-the-city club. We could meet at local establishments (and buy something of course) to discuss ideas, form sub-committees to implement those ideas, and accept donations to fund those ideas... Just saying that we could use the occupy momentum to implement positive change. I will be at Anna Banana's in NW PDX on Tuesday starting at noon. If anyone wants to join me and work on this I would be happy to have some company. We could do weekly rotations through different neighborhoods, or even have more than one per night throughout the town! Come on guys what do you say :)
7
Enough already. #Occupy jail cell.
8
Oh, and one more thing. They really need to think hard about the image they're projecting to the rest of the city and country. Fairly or unfairly, most of the public thinks of them as a bunch of commie ne'er do wells. Cry about media bias all you want, but it doesn't help your cause when people are holding giant red flags when they clash with police, as they were last Saturday. There's nothing wrong with being progressive, but looking like a bunch of Bolsheviks doesn't play well in America.
9
@8: A red flag is a symbol of any left wing ideology or movement, not just Bolshevik Communism. Its use predates Marx. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_flag
10
@9: At the risk of speaking for AiWenSen: that's beside the point. The swastika is an ancient good-luck symbol, but I'd suggest not slapping it on a flag if you're trying to win public support. (That's a pretty big "IF" in the preceding sentence, though.) I suspect a big red flag triggers "OH HEY THEY LIKE STALIN" in Mr. and Ms. Average's brain.
11
Meh. I don't think you're ever going to win over anyone who associates a red flag with Stalinism. That person has been brainwashed by a half century of red baiting to associate anything remotely left wing with totalitarian Communism (and more recently, Nazism). The red flag is an empowering symbol and has been used traditionally in the US for labor rallies and other progressive causes. There's no reason to cower to right wing propaganda -- wave your freak flags. Be proud to be a lefty.
12
I've seen very old maps of Japan, predating WW2, that show swastikas too. I belive they were religous places of note.
While I'm sure you're correct on the red-flag usage throughout history, the fact is I've never seen it associated with anything but communist ideals in this country.
For right or wrong.
You are trying to rally people to your cause, not turn them away.
13
@Ovidius: Fair enough; that wanders back to my "if" comment, though. If you think the 99% that are in "red" states (given the point of discussion, I'm now amused by that designation) are either pointless to address or indifferent to/aware of the symbolism, then yeah, fly the freak flag. Personally, I'm skeptical about that. I think it's important to gently ease into the discussion: "Yes, you're being screwed. Trick is, the immigrants aren't screwing you. The ability to vote isn't screwing you. Regulations aren't screwing you. The corporations that have bought the government? They're screwing you." Flapping a flag that invokes 'Red Dawn' or 'just about anything regarding China' doesn't help with that, in my opinion.

I'll shaddap now since it wasn't my observation in the first place.
14
Jesus Christ, occupy the banks, Walmarts, BP, etc., not fucking parks. Make a visible statement, don't just sleep, party, bitch, and try to piss people off.
15
The current arrangements of this country go something like this. The very wealthy own the vast majority of the wealth, of productive capital, much of the housing stock, the media system. they generally control the political process through a variety of methods, so blatantly obvious that I hope not to have to enumerate them.

this elite has, in the last ten years or so, got this country embroiled in two foreign wars, stalled any preventative action on carbon emissions (perhaps the greatest crime in human history), and blown up the entire global economy in a speculative frenzy- throwing hundreds of millions, if not billions of people into greater desperation.

and now, some sort of response is starting, just starting to develop itself. And we get a parade of internet pundits trotting out tangential complaints and tantrums regarding the tactics of Occupy. they don't agree with 100% of what the movement is doing. maybe just 65%. or they are simply corporate tools that don't have the honesty to admit "we think this system is the way it should be".

the radical left in america is ossified, it needs to stumble around and gain its footing. i would note that occupy has moved into confronting the trade regime of globalization, defense of people that face foreclosure, as well as police violence. so, while i may agree that parks are not the best of targets, they are hardly the only ones. i note however, many people will continue to try to take parks, because they have no where else to sleep- all power to them.
16
The radical left was the cause of Bush becoming President in the first place, who started one of those wars. The radical left has been little more than a pain in the ass to alot of progressives even.
And now these elements within 'occupy' threaten to alienate them from the rest of society they purport to represent.
17
Just a few more strident pats on this djembe and change will come. I can feel it.
18
@15: "they generally control the political process through a variety of methods, so blatantly obvious that I hope not to have to enumerate them."

That's the problem. You do. Otherwise the issues wouldn't be issues. You don't need to enumerate them *here* necessarily, but at the moment when people ask, "when are you going to leave the parks?" Or "If you're so pissed, why was your voter turnout so crappy?" If you let people dismiss you as a bunch of middle-class socialist brats, they'll do exactly that. (With apologies to Oingo Boingo.)
19
Oh hi guys,

Do you know how much tax revenue was lost when those jerks sat-in at the Woolworth's lunch counter? Man, that really shut down business and screwed us all!

Stop being so shallow. Look at the bigger picture. Oh, and by the way, nobody is going to be hurt from the port action. The workers are going to get paid, it's a citizen picket that the workers will be joining only if the arbitrator moves against them being able to work for the day. We are picketing Goldman Sachs, who owns a company that has a 51% share in operations at the port of Portland and has fired workers for organizing in Los Angeles. We are picketing EGT who refuses to honor their contract with ILWU workers in Longview, Washington.

This is a movement for the workers and the rank-and-file are supportive. If you don't believe that, just pay attention on Monday, see what happens, and then try to find some better sources for your eyes, ears, and whatever else you are using to interpret information that is freely available if only you dig a little deeper than turning on the television or radio.
20
If your goal is to close down the port, and you do - somewhere in the process the little guy is gonna get screwed. I guarentee it. Maybe he isn't on the dock, maybe he is waiting for the goods off the dock or transporting the goods from the dock - but it'll be the little guy who gets bent over.
Don't be naive
21
@19. That's just it, a lot of us on the outside are looking at the bigger picture, and it's a very hazy one. Nobody understands their end game, what is it they are trying to achieve? Complete and total remake of government? Drastic economic reforms? What? How?

For a while, I've been sitting back thinking, "Great, good basic ideas. Now if you want to effect change, run for office. Do something productive about it". On the opposite end of the political specturn, look at the Tea Party. Is started out as a group of similary disaffected people, they had their rallies, they organized, they campaigned, and now some of them are legislating. Sure, they had their sugar daddies (Koch, CPACs, etc.), but I think that kind of support can be found on the national level for this cause.

This is the kind of evolution I'm talking about. This is the sort of next step the movement needs to take if it wants to be relevant. Otherwise, it will just continue to annoy the ordinary people who have to pay for these petty little "actions".
22
Hmmm... just getting around to reading the W Week article "Unions say no to occupy portlands call for a waterfront strike"
I guess they ain't so hot of the idea of shutting down the port after all, eh?
23
@22: My union wouldn't want me to walk off the job on an arbitrary date without a vote or agreement either, no matter what the cause. It's not likely that a union would break it's contract in any case just to support a small grassroots protest. If union people get involved en masse, it would have to be an illegal wildcat strike -- and that is really, really unlikely.
24
All you guys are doing with your antics is hurting the people your say that you "Fighting" for. Trespassing into malls and stores trying to get people to stop shopping? For one that is not what the movement is about. You guys are making up your own shit for the cause as you go. I bet not one of these idiots that are still out causing trouble even knows what the movement was even about. But anyways, back to my point. When you try and shut down these stores and malls with your BS, who do you think is working in these stores? Hmmm, I am guessing people that are in the 99%. yeah, they are higher in the 99% then your jobless ass, but they are still in it. You are not hurting the people that you need to hurt by doing this shit you are doing. You are not fighting for anybody. You are just out cause trouble. Go home, get a job and get a freakin life.
25
The notion that participants in occupy should involve themselves in the electoral process is one of the worst ideas I could think of. Elections, or, more clearly, the political electoral process, is only one area political struggles gets fought in. There are many others, in the work place, against the police, against foreclosure.

It is precisely the lack of mass participation by disposed peoples in these other areas that render electoral politics so completely ineffective in the needed transformation of our society. That this is starting to change is what strikes fear into those people that support and defend the current arrangements.

As long as the political process is controlled by two capitalist parties, and hinge on the corporate media, and in the absence of mass movement by a motivated and substantial minority force, politics, the political process, is constructed in a way to capture and divert energy into β€œacceptable, realistic” channels. that is, realistic and acceptable for the maintenance of elite interests. it’s not a β€œconspiracy” it’s a shared ideology that is serviceable to power.

As to the mechanisms, well there are countless ways the two parties collude in maintain their monopoly on power. Who gets to debate in the nationally televised debates? Nader got expelled from attending, let alone participating the 2000 debate, even though he was polling in the same place as other contenders that had been included in the past! Why? Because the media decided he was not β€œserious”. Both parties attempt to insure that 3rd party ballot status is hard to achieve. The main ways that communication is organized in this country is through publicly held but privately run radio and tv bands. Campaigns are very very expensive because of this. This supports monied interests. Right now the GOP is disenfranchising as many people as it can in β€œvoter fraud” legislation. Do we hear the democratic party , as in the president even mentioning this?

As to screwing the little guy, the example of the civil rights movement is very good. Yes, lots of small town peckerwood sheriffs lost the power to explicitly enforce a color line. And probably a few bus drivers got laid off during the bus boycott. And it’s probably true that during the Viet Nam war protests interrupted some body’s work life. If you ever took the time to study the labor movement, you would notice all sorts of people got inconvenienced. Changing social systems can totally impact people’s lives. So can massive criminality at the top of the economic pyramid, cataclysmic climate change, war, recession/depression, trends that are strangely less concerning to some folks. At best they want to equalize the two side’s impacts on people’s lives. This seems super dumb.

So I don’t care where the leadership of the ILWU stand. There is plenty of support amongst the rank and file workers, as we know from direct outreach to them. And as to short haul truckers, some will support it, others will not. In Oakland the action got support from many of them. I imagine that the folks with occupy have a damn sight better idea of what these workers think, because we have taken the time to talk to them. It’s funny how those that suggest we are β€œhurting” the interests of the β€œlittle guy” say we have no business speaking for aforementioned little guy, but have no problem at all about making their own assumptions about those very same people. I don't view as hypocritical so much as simple thinking.

As to the election of bush, people want to lay that at Nader’s feet. But Gore won the popular vote, and probably won the Florida count. But the Democratic Party demobilized and rolled over in the face of the GOPs extra parliamentary maneuvers (organized gangs storming vote counting precincts). Al Gore was very explicit about this, that he β€œgave up the fight” for the sake of national stability. Its lazy and complacent to blame Nader. The reality of the situation is far more complicated and dangerous to contemplate.

And speaking of that stupid inept Donkey, the Democratic Party. Part of what you are seeing is the response to yet another sell out of it’s supposed β€œbase.” Folks had really high hopes for the Obama administration, the campaign incorporated actual people into it in a way we have not seen for some time, and allowed people to project all sorts of fantasies onto him. Rob Emanuel and the corporate wing of that party tore apart the energy and infrastructure that was created during the Obama run. This is because to them, their base is useful idiots that allow them to get into power, and then go cut their deals with capitalists, because they know that the GOP is viewed worse poison.

An intact, mobilized base for the Democrats is the worst thing imaginable for them. It would have been much more difficult to put a fork in single payer health care, or escalate a war in Afghanistan, throw out card check union elections, if those people that had gotten Obama into power had continued to organize within the party. Better to tell them to go get fucked, see you in four years when you get to choose between me, and some one that hates you.
26
If Gore had been able to spend more time and money courting the independent voters, who tend to fall between the major 2 political parties in their beliefs, instead of pandering to the far left - he would have easily won that election. It is fantasy to believe otherwise.
The Tea Party, whom I abhor for the most part, share many of the same ideals of 'occupy', but have attempted to work within the system. They got candidates elected. They changed the national debate on debt. While I don't agree with most of their aims, I admire the fact they took action for change and have gone about it effectively.
I still think this attempt to block the docks is hurting the very people you claim to represent more than the 1%.
27
Anyone notice that anytime Occupy PDX pulls a stunt, that it gains less and less support? The Occupy Movement, before it camped out in the parks, had a lot of support from people. It does not appear that way now.

To me, that's a startling failure.

Clearly the tactics are not working. Did you people ever think of doing something else?

A now Monday's bright idea:

Shutting down a port.

At best, it will be shut down one day, you'll be arrested and charged and have a record, and things will return back to normal the next day with your protesting garnering even less support from the public.

And that's the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is you won't even get to shut down the port, you'll be arrested and charged, and you'll still lose public sentiment!

Whatever this "leaderless" movement is thinking of doing or proposes of doing, just do the exact opposite. Seriously.

And oh, good grief, a law STUDENT is going to challenge the ruling about camping in parks? Good luck. The only thing on her side is Oregon's more open interpretation on free speech rules.
28
@25. I'm still waiting for a clear and detailed answer from someone on exactly what Occupy is trying to achieve and how it intends to achieve it. You seem the most ardent Occupy supporter here, so I'm hoping you can shed some light. Detailed steps for this societal transformation you speak of. What does an ideal, Occupy influenced country look like? Outside of the thus far ineffective park occupations, how do we get there?

To me, ignoring the political process because of control by "the elites" seems a tired excuse. Occupy has solid basic arguments, but I continue to believe it is not taken seriously because of the way it presents itself. Ask anyone to describe what Occupy Wall Street looks like, and they will probably depict a drum circle of white dudes in dreads, wearing an excessive amount of hemp clothing. Most Americans have a dim view of this. Just think for a second if the movement were more organized, and there was a national spokesperson who cleaned up and donned some khakis to do the rounds on the Sunday morning shows, maybe even chimed in to debate some of the pundits on the cable news networks. How's that for a platform to convey your basic beliefs to a mass audience? Think of the positive image the average person might take away if this course of action was followed a few months ago. Occupy might actually have a louder voice than the screams heard when the cops come to take the tents away...

Some occupiers might quickly (and foolishly) dismiss this as "selling out", but marketability is key. It would pay to spend a little time thinking like the business people they seem to abhor.
29
al gore won the popular vote, and would have won the Florida recount. the Republican party organized mobs of young men to interrupt vote counts, and attempted to stall, interfere, and other wise impact the legal process. lets be clear, one major political party is willing to move beyond "constitutional" frameworks in it's quest for power. the other political party is too wedded to "national stability" to confront them. that is the actual story of the 2000 election. not some asinine notion that we should only ever have 2 options in our elections.

"we don't like the camping" - do something else.

"we don't like the port shut down"- do something else.

"we don't like the squating"- do something else.

"we don't like the demonstrations" do something else.

how do you like war, a depression, and a climate that is about to look like one that dinosaurs lived under? i am sure the next election will sort it out. go Obama!
30
At least 100 MILLION people were MURDERED by communist regimes in the 20th century.
31
thats right, occupy is exactly the same as the soviet union. all those kids down there are just waiting to shove you into concentration camps. how many people died under global capitalism? i mean after the first couple million, its hard to keep track on either side.
32
"Sorry for any inconvenience while we fix our democracy," said a sign waved in front of one blocked truck.

"The lost wages, that’s a real concern for a lot of people, and we've also heard from some customers today who are really fed up and upset about why they've not been able to get service today, or why things are being delayed as a result of the protests, and we share in that frustration," Thomas said.

Oh yeah! More misguided self-righteousness from everybody's favorite nuisance.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/12/portland-port-shutdown-occupy-seattle.html
33
Thanks 'occupy' for showing us you know what we need better than we ourselves do.
How very selfless of you. I think we should have some merit-badges locally made and pinned on each one of you by Mayor Adams for looking out for all of us 99% people.
34
"Everybody's got their right to protest -- I just won't get paid if I can't pick up the load," he said, inching his truck slowly into the driveway. "I'm just a guy trying to make a living."

Smaller businesses said they, too, were hurt by the daylong protest. "Who the heck are (they) trying to hurt?" asked Shauna Watts, owner of a four-person firm that helps shippers. "It's Oregon's pocketbook: It's our local employers, local truck drivers and local workers at the dock."

"This completely defeats the message Occupiers are trying to get across," he said. "This obviously affected more than just corporations."

As predicted by frankieb (and just about anyone able to think critically). If anything, the truck drivers are to be commended for as exercising as much patience as they did. If this were New Jersey, you'd had a lot of protesters with bloody noses.

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2011/12/occupy_portland_protestors_pre.html
35
and i am sure that you folks where down there, talking to these truckers. no? just get your info from the corporate press? i was. some truckers were for, some against. these short haul truckers are under plenty of economic pressure, that some folks respond positivity to the development of a social movement organized against the forces that place them in this position makes sense. that others don't see the value in it, and are thinking about their own personal bottom line, well thats to be expected too.

that you did not get that from the media is of no surprise. the american media is generally comprised of lazy cowards, complacents and the intellectually incurious. as i see it, heres how the press works. they have a notion of "common sense". that common sense re-enforces what is "known" to be true. narratives that fall outside that "common sense" get ignored. if they can't be ignored, they get talked down too, or maligned- like the linking of stolen vehicles and weapons to the port shut down.

Perfect example- i have a friend that works down town. the media was interviewing people about the damage to the parks. she, and her companion noted that large events on the water front, or in other parks also damage the grass, and this requires reseeding. in fact, this occurs all the time. that a similar amount of damage occurred in the act of civil protest seemed acceptable.

did this make the news? nope. just the anti made the news. because the media, just like many posters here, has a preconceived notion, a "common sense" if you will, that gets reinforced over the course of their work day. this is why protesting is viewed as "pointless", or "counterproductive". people should just vote, or lobby politicians. ideas or politics that move outside of this "common sense" get ridiculed.

the Oregonian has had it out for "Occupy" from the start. it was clear in their editorials that belittled the activity for months. That they print a certain news story is not a conspiracy it's just a reflection of a narrow perspective that looks for self reinforcing informational inputs. it mirrors the values of the owners of the media, and the media's customer base- corporations.

what is a shame is how many folks can't see the interests that shape the narrative. but this is changing, thank god. because the "official" narrative is increasingly removed from the experience of peoples lives. that is why 3 years ago occupy would have been swept by the police the first night, but today is stronger then ever.

36
Nope, I wasn't there, as I had other things to do. Still, I don't see how preventing ordinary people from doing their jobs is good or helpful. Particulary when they're under "economic pressure" as you point out.

Here we go again, deflecting criticism from these inane and misguided "actions" to the corporate media monster. What we have is yet another prime example of the message being squandered by poorly selected actions. The Oregonian doesn't cost the city $1 million in police overtime, The Oregonian doesn't cost middle class truck drivers and dock workers wages. Occupy does. I'm at a loss as to why they can't see this, and continue carrying on the way they are. I really wonder how much more patience the city has for this stuff. Without a compelling narrative and a vehicle for the changes they wish to see, this is just noise.

As for the park grass example. Yes, damage to the waterfront is in fact acceptable for various festivals. Know why? Because thousands of people flood downtown and spend money. Things are bought a sold, people earn wages, there are tangible benefits realized by the community. When people squat in a public park and don't really do anything productive, it's a different matter entirely.
37
I think it is of no use talking to these people. They are like religous zealots convinced they are on a mission to Do Good. Even if it hurts people.
38
mcbee- man, you calling the media all kinds of names ain't right. There are good, competent elements, as well as those less gifted in their work - just like in any field of work. And there has been many pro and con articles / news bites I have seen and read.
Any sorts of winning the hearts and minds of John Q public has to use not only 'alternative' news sorts, but also effectively use the mainstream media to reach the majority of Americans for whom only get their news from them.
Blaming the media for how you have been portrayed is the problem of 'occupy' itself, not the media. Take some responsibility, for christssake and quit pointing fingers.
The 'O' has also run some editorials that have been quite sympathetic too.
And you are either being intellectually dishonest or are just plain ignorant of the fact those festivals on the waterfront park area PAY for damage done to the parks.
This is well-worn material on these pages.
And don't be so damn condescending to all these folks you think fail to see who is shaping the narrative. Maybe we see clear enough to see through your BS.

Please wait...

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