This Is How You Kill a Movement

Comments

+ a jillion.

Commenty Colin on October 11, 2011 at 9:53 AM

Yes yes yes. Direct democracy is kind of a pain in the ass. I really hope that OWS eventually realizes that, and actually shapes itself into a viable political force.

Joe Streckert on October 11, 2011 at 10:02 AM

Well said. Now I'm having bad flashbacks to the mid 1990s.

As much as I want this movement to succeed, they are doomed to fail in the current state. Having constant drum circles, consensus building feel good sessions, extreme far-left demands of "abolish capitalism", no organization, dressing like the part of the dirty hippie stereotype; this turns mainstream Americans off who might otherwise march....the very people the movement needs to succeed.

Time and time and time again I saw it in the environmental movement. New people would show up who didn't want to see old growth logging, yet they would never return and people would wonder why.

humanclock on October 11, 2011 at 10:16 AM

I don't have time for direct democracy. I just want the corrosive influence of corporate money and lobbying out of the political process.

Suburban Porn King on October 11, 2011 at 10:37 AM

That "how do we feel?" call-and-response bullshit needs to go, immediately. It makes you sound like zombies.

on October 11, 2011 at 10:41 AM

The "Call and Response" is because they legally can't have a PA system. They're using surrounding people as a "repeater".

blogadoon on October 11, 2011 at 10:47 AM

When he comes to town again C.T. Bulter offers classes that help speed up the consensus.

http://www.consensus.net/

The Oregon political process already involves lots of consensus building and public meetings that is why building anything here takes forever and costs more.

Rosy on October 11, 2011 at 11:02 AM

This is why radicals advocated the Ward Republic during the American Revolution, and the Russian Revolutionaries attempted a similar model in trying Soviet Democracy. In both cases you had ass-hats that would accuse the attempt to organize a democratic system as being proof that the Monarchy or the Elders of Zion were behind the plot - by taking the process over with committees. Of course, crazy people always will say that their boogy-man of choice is behind the process. As long as things are transparent with recalls and a direct line to the masses, the only way to get things going at all is to form a democratic committee instead of this ass-hattery.

The Immortal Goon on October 11, 2011 at 11:20 AM

They invited Lewis to speak a little later--he showed up in the middle of a working session--but he had a scheduling conflict. It was just bad timing all around. Occupy Atlanta has issued a formal apology and asked him to return: http://eastatlanta.patch.com/articles/an-open-invitation-to-rep-john-lewis

As for the call-and-response, it's not meant as any kind of endorsement or groupthink of whatever the person is saying; it's the "people's mic," a way of making sure everyone hears what's being said since they can't always use an amplifier. It is not some kind of kumbayah thing.

And as for complete consensus: Yeah, it's totally crazy-making. I know from watching the Occupy Portland General Assemblies that they're working out ways to amend the consensus process. Anyone with ideas on how to help with that I'm sure would be welcome at the GAs: 7 am and 7 pm every day.

on October 11, 2011 at 11:29 AM

I went to the GA on saturday night and I empathize with both the movement and the general public who only views snippets of the process. Yes, ideally we would like to include everyone's voice and opinion and find 100% consensus. I think the movement needs to realize that this is an ideal and not applicable to a modern democracy. I left the meeting (after about another quarter had) feeling disheartened by the bickering and people speaking just to be heard. There were lots of attention whores that night who stifled progress that could have been made. I plan on going to the GA tonight, I hope things have changed for the better!

on October 11, 2011 at 12:26 PM

We DO NOT, nor have we ever, lived in a 'direct democracy'.
We live in a REPUBLIC people.

frankieb on October 11, 2011 at 12:31 PM

Whoops - the MOVEMENT is a direct democracy. Got it.
One thing you gotta give credit to the Tea Party asses for: they had a fairly unified message and affected change.

frankieb on October 11, 2011 at 12:37 PM

Occupy Baltimore has adopted Formal Consensus as developed by Food not Bombs co-founder C.T. Butler. This consensus-based group decision making process avoids this kind of stuff and is elegant and doable. I suggest that all Occupy movements look into it and if anyone in Portland wants to meet up and talk about it I've been trained as a Formal Consensus facilitator and would love to meet other people interested in improving the movement's decision-making.

Article about Baltimore:
http://blog.thephoenix.com/BLOGS/phlog/arc…

Site about Formal Consensus:
http://www.consensus.net/

JustinPDX on October 11, 2011 at 12:49 PM

I USED TO TEACH FORMAL CONSENSUS WORKSHOPS. I KNOW THE FLOW CHARTS AND PREFERENCE AND PRINCIPLES AND ALL THAT SHIT. IT WORKS. IT WORKS WELL. THIS SORT OF WISHY-WASHY 'CONSENSUS' BEING USED BY THE OCCUPY MOVEMENT DOES NOT WORK. COMBINE FORMAL CONSENSUS WITH BREAKOUT GROUPS OR AFFINTITY COMMITTEES AND SHIT WILL RUN SMOOTHLY. DECISIONS GET MADE AND EVERYONE IS AT LEAST NOT ANGRY WITH THE DECISIONS.

Graham on October 11, 2011 at 1:14 PM

Those of you trained in Formal Consensus need to get down there. They need you and very probably desperately want you.

on October 11, 2011 at 1:29 PM

@justinpdx Occupy Portland uses that Consensus method for its General Assembly facilitation. Watch it here in action http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaVvzTyMcls

mcassidy on October 11, 2011 at 1:56 PM

There's also "Dialogue Mapping" and "Issue Mapping" to look at - see http://cognexus.org/.

on October 11, 2011 at 2:00 PM

FUCK IT. I'VE CHANGED MY MIND. ROBERTS RULES FROM NOW ON. PROPER PARLIAMENTARY PROCEDURES WILL ENSURE THE SMOOTH RUNNING OF THIS REVOLTIONARY BODY.

Graham on October 11, 2011 at 2:03 PM

@MCASSIDY: I HAD TO TURN THE VIDEO OFF THE MOMENT THAT DUDE SAID "TWINKLES". THAT IS NOT HOW YOU GET TAKEN SERIOUSLY BY THE ADULTS IN THE ROOOM. SERIOUSLY, WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT SHIT?

Graham on October 11, 2011 at 2:22 PM

Yeah, no shit Graham.
Wait, that video was meant as a joke, right?

frankieb on October 11, 2011 at 2:26 PM

WTF? That actually happened? That *HAS* to be a joke/spoof set up. That would be truly insane if that was actually true and not a set up.

on October 11, 2011 at 3:33 PM

Okay, so I have been informed of the purpose of the call and response. Gotcha. But they still shouted down opinions they didn't want to hear by yelling "Mike check!" over and over didn't they? Did I misread that one too?

on October 11, 2011 at 4:07 PM

Rich, you were right on in the first place - the do sound like zombies, or something outta WW2 Germany.
It may serve a function, but still....

frankieb on October 11, 2011 at 4:34 PM

WAIT -
*twinkle-ups* for Graham and rich bachelor!!

frankieb on October 11, 2011 at 4:36 PM

@ rich bachelor: Yes, I think you misread that one too. I thought they were using the standard "mic check" thing not to drown out opinions someone doesn't want to hear but to bring everyone's attention back to the formal process when individuals randomly try to circumvent the process by yelling out things and trying to shout others down.

geyser on October 11, 2011 at 9:09 PM

I watched the video to the end. And — although it's a painfully tedious process — they came to a reasonable decision:

The group had an agenda. Large meetings are very expensive: you're using everyone's time. In order to deviate form their agenda, and peoples' expectations, they required a clear consensus. They didn't achieve one, and so they moved on. The 'mic check' shouting-down device can be seen as reasonable too: it prevented the group from being derailed off its agenda.

snurk on October 12, 2011 at 12:52 AM

How can you defend such foolishness?
Using that bullhorn seemed to me to negate any need for this prolonging call-back tactic.
If even Savage is calling this out, then you know it is in trouble.

frankieb on October 12, 2011 at 6:27 AM

@FRANKIEB: DAN SAVAGE CAN IN NO WAY BE CONSIDERED A REASONABLE PERSON.

Graham on October 12, 2011 at 8:29 AM

Man, John Lewis has had to put up with ALOT of horrendous, humiliating bullshit over his entire life. Having been an original Civil Rights activist, Lewis has dealt with being arrested, beaten, and having his life threatened by some of the most disgusting rednecks on Earth.

In 2009, he was harrassed, spat upon, and called 'nigger' over and over by monsterously racist tea-baggers. You'd think these dummies here would herold this guy as a hero and DEMAND to hear what he has to say. Unbelievible how he gets treated by soo many nuts!

Welcome to the Black experience.

DamosA on October 12, 2011 at 1:55 PM

This is Wren Tuatha from C.T. Butler's consensus training team. To be factual, Occupy Baltimore has NOT officially adopted Formal Consensus (which CT now calls VALUES-BASED CONSENSUS) but we are working with them to add aspects as the group wants and is ready. We don't have an agenda that occupy groups must adopt our model, but we are eager to show anyone who will listen that our model is "elegant and easy" as it's often described, and that it ACTUALLY INTERRUPTS PRIVILEGE AND OPPRESSION. Please contact us via consenus.net or at curiocoast@comcast.net; 410-458-2310. We want to help you do what you do better.

on October 17, 2011 at 6:42 PM

This Is How You Kill a Movement

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