If you'r an undocumented worker, your employer still docks your check for taxes of all sorts, but without a valid SS number you can never get a refund from the IRS; so on average undocumented workers probably pay more in taxes than US citizens earning the same amount.

Calling those of us against illegal immigration RACISTS?
WTF Sarah?
I'm against illegal immigration of any color, to include our Canadian neighbors. They could be purple or plaid - or white - I don't care.
What your article doesn't point out is the costs of illegal immigration on the school system, the health system, etc.
Yes, most of them do pay taxes, but the financial picture is far from black and white.
But characterizing everyone against illegal immigration racists is just plain irresponsible.

I would like to encourage the pulled commenter to rephrase their comment so it DOESN'T include calling Sarah a Bad Word.

I'm as liberal as they come. But having followed OCCP for a few years, they equal on the left the fanciful distortions by right lobby groups like the Cascade Policy Institute. There is a huge chain of unsubstantiated assumptions in that press release.

@7: So Sarah starts a post with "Newsflash, racists!" and your first thought is that she must be addressing you? Interesting.

@frankieb I agree with you that SM is being presumptuous; not all people who oppose illegal immigration are racist. Then again, many are.

If you're like me, you oppose illegal immigration because you believe that American should not have an underclass of people who are exploited daily and live in fear.

OTOH, there are several organizations and people who oppose illegal immigration because they think the browning of America is dangerous to "white hegemony" (that's a term I assume a white supremacist would use to justify their hate).

@7, blow me, ya butthurt racist cunt!

@2, Not everyone who opposes illegal immigration is a racist, but they are all hypocrites or idiots. When my family came here in 1704, we shot the current occupants and took their land. When your family came here, they walked off the boat, probably passed under a French statue, and became my family's servants. Of those two methods that made me and you equally American, which would you prefer for modern immigrants? Or is neither good enough in the 21st century?

If you look at the history of "Illegal immigration" (i.e. immigration policies) in the United States, you'll see it's just as racist as the drug war. It's like saying, "I don't mind the Klansmen burning crosses, but I'm no racist."

The easy solution to immigration is to stop fucking with Mexico's economy, politics, people, and to end NAFTA and the drug war. The immigrants (at least from Mexico) will stop coming, and we can enjoy bananas that cost $8 a pound, and corn that costs $7.

1. It's widely accepted that 8/10 undocumented immigrants are from Latin American countries.

2. It's also true that sneaking into this country or overstaying a visa aren't even felonies - they're misdemeanors like loitering or petty theft.

3. It's widely known anecdotally that the undocumented pay for public services through their involuntarily withheld taxes, yet avail themselves of public benefits at far lower rates than the general population because they don't have the paperwork and/or they are afraid of being discovered. Because of the nature of the problem, there simply won't ever by any hard data that will be sufficient to quiet the skeptics, but it's clear to anyone who works in or around communities with high levels of the undocumented.

4. Of the many studies that have been done of the cost/benefits of illegal immigration (factoring in everything), it seems like its about a wash, economically speaking. Some rabidly anti-immigrant groups state that the net deficit may be $10B per year. Even if that's true, that represents practically a rounding error when compared to GDP, the federal budget, or especially trillion-dollar budget deficits. In short, there's no honest economic argument to be made here, when the size of the alleged problem even in worst-case scenarios is considered comparatively alongside all the other issues we face as a nation.

To me, that supports:

5. If you get completely bent out of shape about the comparative non-damage being done by a group of misdemeanants that consists mostly of people of another race/national origin, that's good circumstantial evidence that you've got a lil' bigotry problem.

I hereby nominate Commenty Colin for comment of the week.

What I'm against is the fact that illegal immigrants tend to take blue-collar work for less than what the market would normally bear. They de-value the wages of your blue-collar worker in jobs that used to be middle-class wage work. Home-building jobs is but one example.
If all these people spouting the benefits of illegal immigration were to have the wages of their jobs lowered because of cheap workers from other countries, then I would bet they too would soon be changing their tune.
I'm also married to a immigrant, and it was a pain to go through all the BS, but we did it.
I'm tired of hearing poor immigrant sob stories and then accused of racism if I don't share Sarah's views here.
You're still a fun read Sarah, but that was offensive.

There's plenty of good arguments re: tightening up illegal workers, but "They don't pay taxes!" has never seemed like a good one. Not to mention damn near everyone HATES paying taxes, and most do their damnest to avoid it. Hell, Newt said in the debate that capital gains should go untaxed! The idea that income produced from sweat and blood should be taxed, but income produced by doing nothing other than having your expendable income "working" for you shouldn't be taxed is about as ass-backwards as policy gets.

Alison, is the BAD WORD 'cunt' then?
I missed the comment before it was pulled, and I don't think of Sarah in such a way - but with all the offensive things in these blogs daily and harsh language being routine often, I fail to see the grave error of calling someone a cunt. The British do it all the time, and everyone knows we get nothing dirty from them.
Hasn't Steve been called a cunt before in these blogs?
Is 'cunt' really so much more offensive than calling someone 'motherfucker'?

@ 14, I have all the data I need to be convinced that you won't ever credit anything that I put in front of you. My inability to change your opinion doesn't bother me, as I don't really give a shit about your opinion.

@15 You're doing a lot of complaining for someone who is so staunchly anti-sob stories.

@16 +1.

+1 to CC *slow clap*

@ 14, 15 :

He called her a "daft cunt"; it's in a violation of Terms of Service, which we can and do enforce at will. Calling someone a cunt in a jokey way= fine, whatever. Calling a writer a cunt because you disagree with her argument = not fine. Arbitrary? Absolutely. It's our playground. Also, I care a whole lot more about the language directed at my co-workers than I do about the feelings of anonymous internet strangers, and I am not even a little bit interested in being consistent. (In other words, "because I said so.")

Sigh.

Hmmm, I should think calling people racist is more inflamatory, but I cannot argue with 'because I said so' !
So, Colin, the plight of the blue-collar worker trying to keep a grasp of middle-class wages is something not of concern to you then?
Or, not so much a concern as helping out illegal immigrants?

@frankieb Actually, illegal immigrants provide a "small but positive impact on the wages of NATIVE-BORN WORKERS overall." (https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http ://www.epi.org/page/-/bp255/bp255.pdf&hl=en_US&embedded=true)

The Economic Policy Institute notes that foreign-born workers (which includes both legal and illegal workers) between 1994 and 1997 RAISED the wages of native-born workers by 0.4% (or $3.68 per week). Admittedly, a puny number, but an increase nonetheless.

If illegal immigrations hurts anyone it's other illegal immigrants. At this point, as the EPI suggests, most low-skilled, illegal immigrants are competing against other low-skilled, illegal immigrants for jobs and thus LOWER the wages of other foreign-born workers by 4.6% (or $33.11 per week).

Even among low-skilled American workers (those with only a HS diploma) their wages benefits from immigration by an INCREASE of 0.3% in their wages (or $1.58 per week).

The numbers may be small, but overall it's a plus for everyone--except other illegal immigrants.

I <3 Alison Hallett.

& #8 is totally correct.

Chundy, I can't get your link to work.
I'd be curious to see how they cooked up those numbers though. .03 or .04% - what was inflation going at then, how did the wages of middle-class workers compare to the wages of upper-earners during that period, etc etc.
I've worked mostly in the manufacturing industry in the last years, being one of those 'low-skilled' workers without a degree, and I've seen first-hand the affect of cheap foriegn labor in the job market.
It's no joke man.

@Festering Hallett

I concede your point that there is a problem in combining legal and illegal workers into one group, but it even messier trying to extricate illegal foreign workers from legal foreign workers.

http://www.epi.org/publication/bp255/

From 'festering' to 'flower-scented' just about made me fall out of my chair laughing!

@ #30: That was an interesting read. Thanks. The study does indeed not distinguish between immigrants who are "permanent resident, temporary visa-holder, refugee, or undocumented worker" and, as Schierholz concludes, "[t]his unfortunately limits the policy-relevance of the research presented here."

Schierholz then does some speculation about why an influx of unskilled labor in places like California might not suppress wages, but what struck me was the basic explanation for why immigration generally is good for the economy. It's simple: immigrants "consume goods and services, which creates more jobs."

But how much do you consume goods and services when you are paid below living wage and whatever you manage to save you send home to your family in Honduras?

And if we assume Americans wouldn't do the awful jobs we ask illegal immigrants to do, would we be worse off overall as a society if strawberries cost five times as much and hotel rooms were an extra $50/night but the people who did those jobs made enough to support a family and send a kid or two to college?

@frankie b and everyone else who's worried that I called them racist: Opposing illegal immigration is not racist, but much of the discussion around the issue includes racist language—such as people who paint immigrants as lazy, mooches, or welfare queens, which are the perceptions this study is looking to counter with its economic facts.

If you debate immigration with an open mind and stick to the facts, go ahead and pat yourself for not letting race color your opinions on the matter.

Well said Sarah - but are not you too guilty for putting racism into the discussion where it wasn't called for?

@frankieb - I think it's called for here because the exact perceptions OCPP set out to investigate with this study—that immigrants use don't pay taxes on the money they earn—are often (but, of course, not always) based on racist ideas of immigrants as leeches on America's public coffers.

@ frank #15. Sure, US blue collar workers suffer.

But maybe the bigger question is: who benefits?

Not to stereotype too much, but the answer is rich republican developers, industrialists and other capitalistas, who hire the undocumented instead of white americans in order to save a buck or two.

And yet the same people who benefit the most, scream the loudest about illegals. Methinks they protest too much.

Or maybe, if you're cynical, you would understand that they are basically saying to the rest of us is 'do as we say, not as we do', while they raise a big fat middle finger in salute to the duped working class schlubbs arguing the pros and cons of illegal immigration on some stupid internet blog.

@ #33: I'm not really "worried," SMirk, so don't worry about it yourself.

I just thought your remark was flippant and that, combined with no factual justification for the assertion that illegal immigrants do not consume (or consume little) benefits, the overall post was pretty weak.

I mean, we know illegal immigrants pay taxes. So what? The only debate is whether they are a providing a net benefit to the economy and American society generally.

I pointed that out with what I thought was a thoughtful criticism. And I thought the "daft cunt" thing was pretty innocuous. And that it sent the message that we can both have knee-jerk reactions to people/things we don't like and call them names, hoping you might pick-up on the subtext that it doesn't really add to the discussion. I think you're a better journalist than that, SMirk.

But it sure ignited a shitstorm of Merc-trollism, with all of the self-professed "tolerant liberals" assuming I was racist or anti-immigrant and doing the same sort of name-calling and otherwise nasty attacks that they condemn. I'm not anti-immigrant or racist. It's pretty obvious to me that both the native-born working class and the illegal immigrants themselves are being exploited by the current policies, which of course are for/to the benefit corporate America. And I also happen to think that the influx of Latino/a culture is adding flava' to the melting pot.

The "daft cunt" remark also provoked some arbitrary, content-based censorship. Again, from people who profess not to do so because they "value different opinions." Riiiiiiiight. Who knew Allison Hallett was such a prude? The "because I said so" thing is pretty stupid, Allison. I would like to think you're a better person than that, but stupid is as stupid does, I guess.

@30 We SHOULD pay American workers, temporary workers, legal and illegal immigrants a decent, living wage and it wouldn't be the end of the world.

In Florida, the Coalition of Immokalee Workers asked local farmers to pay 1-cent more per pound of tomatoes. This meant an additional $20 to a picker’s daily wage (who previously made only $50 a day) and just this small amount made a huge difference in the quality of life of these workers.
http://www.gourmet.com/foodpolitics/2008/0…


Your larger point remains: wouldn't it be preferable to pay workers a living-wage even if it meant things cost a lot more?

Yes, but I disagree that prices would have to increase that much.


The real reason most Americans don't do agricultural work is because it's only seasonal work; most Americans are looking for long-term careers.

C WORD! UNWARRANTED ANGER! RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION! C WORD! EXTREME DEFENSIVENESS!

Did I win?

Chundy, the difference between 'living wage' and 'middle-class' is quite large.
Here in Multnomah County a 'living wage' is just over $9 an hour. Cunt that shit.

@41: So shoplifting a pack of breath mints is the same as violent rape? "Illegal is illegal."

If you support sending a college student who was born in Mexico but brought to America in infancy back to Mexico (a country s/he has never known) after we've paid to educate that student K-12, you probably think killing the capital gains tax will magically "create jobs." It's the economic con-job pulled off by decades of money in politics.