And there I was thinking I might actually want to start going to the Horsebrass regularly after Jan 1. Guess I'll have to wait a year or so until the vile smell of stale smoke (which is even worse than the smell of fresh smoke) disperses. Don: you just lost a potential regular.
Meanwhile, the Moon and Sixpence is closing for a few days to replace the carpet and repaint. Other places are trending toward doing a thorough cleaning (crappy economy makes new carpet unfeasible at this time).
As a smoker and a functioning alcoholic, I'm super excited for the smoking ban. I was working in a bar in Seattle when the smoking ban went in and it dramatically improved the bar scene. By a lot.
Cry me a river. I've lived in a couple other cities when smoking bans were handed down, and it wasn't the end of the world. Really. The worst part is hearing people bitch and moan just prior to the transition.

Me, I'm just happy that I can soon socially partake in one vice without having to partake in the other.
There are plenty of other non smoking places for you "potential regular."
"Hey, as soon as they allow smoking in Powell's I'm going to start hanging out there."
I was looking forward to a pint in the smokefree Horse Brass but now I'll wait. One thing to remember is that all that stale smoke masks other smells that have been in the bar for decades. Some places like Holman's are still going to stink unless they follow the Moon and Sixpence's example. Still better than inhaling second hand smoke, I guess
Additionally, the pile of heated patios installed to accommodate smokers really breathed life into old spaces that were previously cramped and stale. Of course the stingy old barnacles that owned these places would've never made these improvements without this sort of motivation. But believe me, it changed things for the better.
Somehow all of the English pubs in ENGLAND have managed since the ban went into effect in the UK.
I went to the HBP once. Once.
My wife and I love the Horse Brass and used to go there all the time. Just ask Yvette. But ever since my wife got pregnant, we've had to avoid the place, of course -- even if I was going to be the only one having a beer, she's not going to breathe that air. We were hoping to go back once the ban took place, just to revisit our old haunt. So that's one couple that would like to spend money in the Horse Brass but hasn't been in the past few months.
Your baby is most likely to die in any event, whether you blow smoke on it or not.

Everything dies.
I drink your whiney smokers. I drink them up!
Do you really expect us to believe that some phalanx of thirsty, deep-pocketed smoke-haters are going to swoop out of nowhere to repopulate Horse Brass, Holmans et al once the hardcore smoking alcoholics (who are those places' bread and butter) realize what a total bummer it is to try to drink and talk without a cigarette?
Let's face it, the total number of drinks bought in this town is going to go down and that's that. The non-smokers have had a majority of the bars to themselves for a long time, at least anywhere near the central city. I wish them luck keeping the classic places in business, since they're going to have to continue to support Mint, Cork, Pour, Mold, Moss or whatever stupid one-word name bar they've been getting their self-righteous drunk on at up til now. Break out those wallets, O dainty ones! Classic bar culture rests in your hands now!
Um, yes PG, as a matter of fact, we are going to repopulate them. The Horse Brass was my first regular hangout in PDX when I moved here ten years ago, but I haven't been into the place in years due to the smoke... and I'm a smoker! The HB is the first place I plan to go come January. You don't really expect that the number of drinks sold in this town is going to be affected by this, do you (what are you, a cigarette distributor)? Are all the smokers just going stay home from now on? C'mon...

And Don Younger, cry into your Boddington's all you want, but regardless of whether or not you care to admit it, this is going to be a windfall for you and you know it. Your regular puffers are still going to come to your bar, along with those of us who have been avoiding the place due to the horrible air quality. The least you could do is steam clean the carpets for us on Dec. 31.
Working at Chopsticks will never be the same. I'm going to look out from behind the KJ booth and actually see faces instead of a roiling grey sea of smoke.
I may not miss the smoke,
But I do miss PG's rants.
Damn straight.
The pungent stench of the one-word fern bar crowd can be just as bad.
This is Cliffy the Cigarette, and Gosh n Golly(!) this is makin' me awful sad! I'm sorry fer cursin' there, but who doesn't want to enjoy my cool, air-softened taste with a nice cold one? And just think of all those sad folks who'll be doin' all their drinkin', without my stinkin'! Why if I were you young fellers I'd be at the Horse's Bass lickin' my smooth-filtered, scientist-proven taste off the walls!!
I live blocks from the Horse Brass and never go there - in spite of the awesome beer selection - specifically because of how overwhelming the smoke is. I have already had a conversation this week with another non-smoker about the HB and how we are specifically looking forward to going there once the ban takes effect.

I understand Mr. Younger's feelings, but as others have pointed out - and as other cities' histories demonstrate - I think he will be pleasantly surprised by the numbers of people willing to go to the HB that were not before. The "soul" of the place is another question, of course, but is smoking really central to the essence of the HB?

Of course, if the place still reeks of cigarettes, my enthusiasm will be somewhat diminished...
Maybe Mr. Younger is indicating that a large part of what he and his customers enjoyed about the Horse Brass was that its overwhelming smokiness kept most of the dainty, self-important types from coming in. If that is the case, the comments here indicate that leavin' the place all stinky is gonna be a pretty effective strategy for keepin' things more like the way they was.
Brilliant, spudboy. Take that strawman and run with it... This should be fun.
Haven't got time to google for the exact numbers, but when the smoking ban came in in England, total alcohol sales in pubs went down by about 5%. Then went straight back up again a couple of months later to where they were before, when people realised that having a beer is more important than bitching about how much better things used to be in the old days.

For Dan, and other landlords, there are currently three possibilities. Their first choice is a smoky pub. Fair enough - I don't agree, but it's their choice, good luck to them. But that choice is no longer available after Jan 1, whether you like it or not. So you now have two possibilities: a clean-smelling smokefree pub, or a stinking smokefree pub. They are the only two options remaining. Are you really saying you'd prefer it if your pub smelt bad???
OK, for all the "I'm going to start going there!" claimants, real and fake, address the logic:

Your money spent drinking at smoke-free Horse Brass will be money you aren't spending somewhere else. No net gain. This is zero sum, as far as I can tell. But bring it, antismokers! Correct me! Tell us where you go out currently, and tell us where you plan to go in addition! And then tell us how you imagine you will pay for this sudden increase in alcohol expenses. (By being tip stingy, I imagine - probably already in your skill set).

Admit it: you'll just say anything to support a world where you're somehow magically no longer tempted to take up the habit again. The truth is a casualty in your terror of having to witness other people enjoying a fucking smoke. Well as I said, you're going to have to drink at Sandy Hut etc. IN ADDITION to supporting Leaf, Bliss, or wherever you and your sensitive nose have been posing until now. Because those of us who smoke when we drink might go out only slightly less come 2009, but in any case we sure aren't going to take the empty seat in Doug Fir your sudden enthusiasm for The Trap has left vacant.
I'm with spudboy!! As an occasional drunk smoker, I prefer a place like Plan B where you can step out to a decent patio for a smoke instead of coming home smelling of smoke. BUT the fact that the smoking keeps most of the princesses and pretension out of my favorite dives... if that changes it's gonna suck!
Shucks, it's Cliffy the Cigarette again. Now why don't you all stop fightin' and start smokin'! Why, if you smoke me slowly I depress the passage of yer friendly nerve passages and get the dopamine flowin', thereby actin' as a natural sedative.
@A cat: I see the straw man argument in this comment thread, but I don't think it is mine. Are you saying that my argument is a straw man? If so, please explain.
my my, the Big Tobacco Brainwash worked well on some folks, didn't it? 'i'm such a rebel! i draw smoke into my lungs, that makes me so much tougher than you!' *exhale* *cough, hack* 'i sure like being this lone stud of a marlboro man in my stinky old dive! too bad all you people who like to breathe are going to be back out here now, fouling up the ambience!'

i don't smoke, and i don't care if people smoke indoors - fireplaces do. 'course people who install fireplaces are smart enough to put in chimneys with 'em; no one was ever that thoughtful in designing the smoking sections of restaurants. those bowling-alley air-venting/cleaning systems seemed to work pretty well, i couldn't smell the smoke one lane away. obviously, there were ways to do it, it just doesn't seem to be worth the investment to keep the occasional business of the five or six die-hard indoor smokers left in the state of oregon.

it's a workplace law for god's sake, people. the people who work there - even people who CHOSE to work there! i like how it's assumed people who work in bars, bowling alleys and clubs have such economic clout that they can just go back to the union hall and get a job any-old-where, somewhere that meets all their personal requirements - don't deserve to go home every night smelling like they've been fighting a fire in a tobacco warehouse all night just because that's where they happen to work. everyone deserves humane working conditions, even waitstaff. is that so hard to grasp? jesus.

for whatever it's worth, i think it's ridiculous that smoking sections outdoors are so severely limited. that's where smoke is supposed to be, right? outdoors - that's why the chimneys. i think smokers have a good argument there if they want to take it that direction.
"its overwhelming smokiness kept most of the dainty, self-important types from coming in."

There you go, spudboy. Ad hominem, strawman, and general purpose lazy/stupid rolled into one. Well done.
You seem to be unclear on exactly what a straw man argument is, A cat, but it's cool, you gave it a pretty valiant effort, you know, for a cat. You do deserve some feline kudos, however, for using an ad hominem attack to decry an ad hominem attack.

The straw man popped up in the first comment and continued throughout the thread as people kept implying that Mr. Younger's argued had anything to do with suffering some sort of economic ramifications, positive or negative, due to the ban. My comment merely reiterated that Mr. Younger's lament was that the ban will like change the "personality" of the bar by changing the individuals that make up the community, regardless of whether he winds up with a smaller or larger number of customers. I figured that paraphrasing the original argument would be a more effective strategy for refocusing the discussion than pointing and screaming "strawman" like a toddler who just learned a new word, because, as you are right now discovering, such behavior tends to take the discussion even further afield.
Happy Hedonist: Capitalization exists because it adds to meaning. I'd have liked to read further into your comments, but the cost/benefit analysis counterindicated it.
"Brilliant, spudboy. Take that strawman and run with it... This should be fun."

...So sez A-Cat. You any relation to A-Hole, A-Cat? I'm jes' kiddin'. We's out here in the countrified parts ain't too up on no Latinate phrases such as Ad Hominem. Shucks, last time I heard such talk, was when Mammy was askin' me if I wanted grits or hominy with my smoked butt! Land sakes! But it do occur to me that you come out o' the box impugnin' Mr. Spudboy's intelligence without quite specifyin' why what he's sayin' is gettin' up in your "nelly-whites"! Out where I come from, such behavior like to get a man strung up. But don't pay me no mind. I'm jest an old fart likes his stinky carpets and his dingy wallpaper. Never cottoned much to smokin' much, though! (HEH HEH)

You both good boys. You get along now, y'hear?
By the way, we down here in Possum County do run with strawmen, and like A-Cat sez, it is mighty fun. Fact, we build a whole Festival around it, e'vy October, The Runnin' With A Strawman Festival. But don't let the name mislead ya, there's a whole lot more for the whole family to do 'sides the titular activity. In addition to the Three-Legged Strawman race, we have a Strawman Toss, a Speed-Build-A-Strawman Contest, a Strawman Eatin' Contest (you city folks ain't seen nuthin' 'til you've seen that, and I guaruntee it!), a Strawman Look-Alike Contest ("Yours Truly" tuck home the trophy three years runnin') and a Strawman Auction benefittin' the local animal shelter.

I think A-Cat would find all of it real fun, and he may consider himself officially invited to drop in, take his shoes off, and set a spell.
You seem to be unclear on exactly what an ad hominem argument is, Spudboy. At no point did I say anything about the arguer (you, in this case); I simply stated my opinion on what I thought was a weak argument (specifically, the idea that those who disagree with Mr. Younger are by virtue of this disagreement "the dainty, self-important types" that Don is trying to save his business from). It was a lazy argument, and unless you can read Mr. Younger's mind, a definite straw man.
I think I get you on the ad hominem point, A cat. Calling you a douchey bitch would be ad hominem, but saying your argument is characterized by a sort of douchey bitchiness would most definitely not be ad hominem. Touche. I take back the assertion that you are deserving of any feline kudos...

I'm not going to deny that the "dainty, self-important" comment could be construed as an ad hominem attack, it was certainly intended as such, but dainty is an amusing word, and you have got to use it when the opportunity presents itself. You are still failing to make the straw man case, however, A cat; referring to someone as dainty and self-important may belittle them, but it doesn't misrepresent their opinion.
I take A-Cat for the playground bully type. I've seen his whatchacall "profile" and the endless snipin' remarks he's left for others in the past, and it's clear as day that "the facts" the boy keeps harpin' on are just an excuse to step up to folks and give 'em a little spit in the eye. Too bad the boy didn't get his hind quarters properly kicked at an age it mighta done him some good. I don't presume to tell Mr. Spudboy or anybody else his business, but I myself figure it ain't nuthin' but "throwin' good money after bad" continuin' to engage this horse's rear end in repartee.

(...Aw, I'm jes' kiddin'. A-Cat's a good boy. Way down deep inside, he's a good boy. Way, way, way, deep, deep, deep down inside, where nobody can see, A-Cat's a real good boy, and I know a good sport like him don't mind a little funnin'.)

Anyway, to more pressin' matters:

Has the world turned plumb upside-down, or am I a Monkey's Uncle Come To Sunday Dinner? In the good old days, bars were wide-open pits of sin and depravity, and we wouldn't have it no other way. Anything was fair game in a bar, within certain margins of civility. A man walks the straight and narra' as best he can, and come quittin' time he needs to restore himself with the soothing ministrations of his favorite vice. When the time comes for a smoke, a whiskey, and some shit-shooting (hell, throw in some video poker while yer at it - y'only go around once) a man sure don't appreciate findin' his favorite spot don't take his type no more.

His vices been payin' the light bill for decades, and now he's just a bum on the stoop.

Like my father, and my father's father's father, I could never get the hang of drinkin' without a Lucky in my fingers, nor would I want to. Where's the sense in it? I'd just spend my time missin' it, and I got better things to do twixt now and Gabriel's horn solo. They "cleaned up" Jimmy's Tap about a year back. Place lost all appeal to me. The Lord and I both know I'm a flawed, disreputable man at heart. What the Sam Hill kind of man wants to spend his time in a bar he can't see eye to eye with?

You are Matt Davis and I claim my £5. Good game, mate.


The fun thing about the text medium is that we have a concrete record of everything conveyed. You're welcome to claim that calling me "a douchey bitch" is equivalent to me writing "brilliant, Spudboy", but anyone that can read can see that it's a retarded suggestion. Again, the idea is retarded; I claim nothing about you as a person. Take care.
Well, A cat, I don't see how I can argue with that. I guess I owe the whole thread an apology for that argument I posited lo so many comments ago, as you have certainly demonstrated that it was a straw man. I both admire and envy your ability to address the fundamentals of an argument and avoid tangents, and, more than anything, your ability to assert a premise and thoroughly and repeatedly defend it, knowing that your pearls are landing before swine. I bow to your majesty, A cat, and I can only hope that someday I will be worthy of scooping out your litter box.
Actually, I do know who Matt Davis is, though only Jesus Christ above knows why I should, as your whole life and its complications ain't worth the stain on yesterday's Fruit of the Looms. (Guess I'm a quick read, and picked up that some Matt feller regularly got your shorts twisted.) If you insist on proof I ain't Matt, such can easily be provided, even though contact with you even on this thread puts my shorthairs in a mighty pinch.

I guess it must be pretty embarrassing to have yer paranoia exposed here, by you yerself, yet. Sometimes, son, a man can be his own worst enemy, and I say that with Christian love in my heart. I'm tellin' ya, it ain't too late to fix the nosedive yer in. The Lord Jesus Christ has been a great help to me, and I humbly suggest you get to know The Lamb.

Unlike Mr. Spudboy, I will refrain from even remotely suggestin' that you are a "Douchey Bitch." I don't think that was kind, and I try to follow the Golden Rule.
Y'know, I was discussin' this silly little thread with my Cousin Walsh whilst we was sloppin' the hogs tonight. Now Cousin Walsh didn't finish grade school. He was kicked in the head by a horse when he was six or so, and I always made it my duty to look after him.

You know what Cousin Walsh said about A-Cat? It 'bout brings tears to my eyes to even type it.

"That Cat Man may be smart, but he should try being funny or witty or entertaining or even a little bit nice once in a while."

I couldn't help it, and I'm man enough to admit it: I dropped that slop bucket, and gave Cousin Walsh the hardest, biggest hug you ever saw. You shoulda seen the smile on that boy's face, like the biggest, brightest sunrise you ever seen.
Like I say, I don't know a whole good deal about rhetorical "straw men," or Add Hominy Grits, or, whatchacall, "general purpose lazy/stupid" ... argumentational ... things ... ... ...

But I used to box in the Army. Fort Huachuca, 1954-1957. And I do know a good punchin' bag when I see one.
Wow, this is still going. Might I add, I'd like to know where Professor PG got his PhD in economics. Let me ask a couple of questions:

Do you consider anyone who opens a new bar in Portland to be diluting your assumed static level of demand, thereby reducing business at every single other bar in the city?

Do you believe that unpleasant factors of any sort associated with a sector of the consumer or service economy, once removed, have no effect whatsoever on the overall demand for that sector's product?

Do you believe that the population of either the Portland metro area or the city itself is static?

I await the forthcoming publication of your dissertation on this issue in a peer-reviewed journal.

Please wait...

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