Every Timbers fan in the world braces for Wednesday morning, when the city council will vote up or down the plan for the PGE Park renovation and the construction of a new baseball stadium suitable for AAA baseball. As Matt Davis has reported, the MLS/AAA stadium task force voted unanimously in favor of the stadium plan, with conditions that I wholeheartedly support. In the greater world of MLS expansion, some cities are wavering in their support and others draw strength from the vacuum.
Seven years ago or so, a small group of people stood in the north end of PGE Park, banging on buckets and laundry bins as they rooted for the newest incarnation of the Portland Timbers. One good chap ordered up a batch of scarves, and thus began the Timbers Army. These scarves have grown to be the most prominent symbol of soccer in Portland, and 4,000 scarves have been sold. They’re not available in stores, they move hand to hand, out of trunks and backpacks, sold for $8 and not for any profit. 4,000 scarves represent a movement that began as 15 people and has swelled to thousands, standing and singing for Portland and for the Timbers. In some ways, we represent many of the best characteristics of Portland—grassroots, involved in the community, fiercely protective, DIY-mad, and proud as hell that Portland is our home—and now we have a chance to help improve this city in a major way.
My final word on the MLS expansion battle, below the fold.
The Competition….Fails
Miami’s mega-yacht of an expansion bid has been sunk by Hurricane Banking Collapse. <a href=”http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/columnists/sfl-flsprusnak02sbmar02,0,336151.column
“>After FC Barcelona expressed serious doubts about committing to an expansion team, Marcelo Claure, who might not be a billionaire anymore, <a href=”http://soccerlens.com/barca-miami-project-implodes-claure-blames-beckham/22933/
“>started talking to the media, blaming Beckham’s defection to Serie A. Hold on, wait a minute. One sell-out crowd of 13 year old girls is the only thing that kept your financial model in the black? Don Garber spent his ‘vacation’ pleading with FC Barcelona, <a href=”http://web.mlsnet.com/news/mls_news.jsp?ymd=20090303&content_id=221343&vkey=pr_mls&fext=.jsp
“>but returned vanquished, announcing the deal was dead. Maybe it has something to do with Miami Dade county’s 83,617 foreclosure filings in 2007 and 2008?
Miami’s failure puts Vancouver BC’s bid at the top of the list, with Portland a conditional second (the City Council needs to vote yes). If Vancouver wins an expansion franchise and the Council votes this measure down, the Portland Timbers may not exist in a season or two, as PTFC would be 1200+ miles away from the nearest other USL team (Minnesota). USL teams do not have the travel budgets to fly every team out to the Northwest for one game. This is a serious risk to professional soccer in Portland. The USL’s shaky financial situation forces the Timbers into an evolve or die scenario, and if the MLS2PDX effort fails, professional soccer will not survive in Portland. That outcome is one that none but the most callous of douchebags would favor.
Why you should support MLS2PDX
I am not a city politics wonk. I can’t tell you which, if any programs or budgets will be affected if the stadium plan is approved by the city council (though nothing I’ve read so far has enumerated such costs). I’m going to make the only credible pitch I can: as a fan of the Timbers and a lover of Portland.
— Portland has been a one-horse town for too long. People who lust for MLB or NFL or NHL or WNBA need to realize that a successful MLS club will help bring other sports to town, not hinder those efforts. An MLS team means that Portland will be shown nationwide in HD at least several times per year. It means traveling fans from Seattle (and possibly Vancouver), reinvigorating the oldest and fiercest rivalry in North American soccer history and spending money. (Matt, think Brentford, Fulham and QPR in the same league. Awesome, right?) It means great opportunities to organize international friendlies with huge teams from abroad with help from our two local shoe companies, who I hear have a good deal of influence. Those of us who have seen how full PGE Park is when Mexican Primera División teams come to town can only imagine the crowds if a Liverpool or a Real Madrid or an Inter Milan or a Bayern Munich came to visit. The US Soccer Association is always searching for attractive venues for the next World Cup, and a soccer-specific PGE Park would certainly be attract World Cup Qualifying matches, early round World Cup matches, and international friendlies. A temporarily modified PGE Park hosted 2003 Women’s World Cup matches and those were amazing sights to behold. PGE Park is a special place.
— This is not a franchise owner ransoming a team for a billion dollar new stadium like the Yankees/Mets have, or the Sonics tried, or even the Dallas Cowboys. Notice how tough the City has been in negotiations with Paulson and company: Paulson is taking on a lot more risk and exposure than he wanted, and the City will make out like bandits from this deal. Furthermore, we’re still talking about a relatively small amount of money. I applaud Paulson and company for engaging the city government and the citizenry in such a transparent negotiation process, seeking input from all sides and hiding nothing. Everything about this deal has been public, and this has spurred serious debate amongst supporters and detractors that has been largely civil. I think that Merritt Paulson understands what the Timbers and the Beavers mean to Portland. Keeping the teams in publicly owned stadia helps the city reap the benefits of the Timbers and Beavers and imbues the citizenry with an extended sense of ownership. Paulson doesn’t want to build suburban stadiums in Hillsboro – He wants the Timbers and the Beavers to play in the heart of Portland. The city as a whole will be better if this deal goes through.
— Timbers fans aren’t 100% of Portland Citizens. We’re not yet 25% of the citizens of Portland. You know what? I think we’re more than 2% of Portland. If 2% of Portland citizens show up to a home game at PGE park, after renovation, that’s a sell-out crowd. Merritt Paulson’s revenue projections only need 1% of Portland to show up: 15,000 people. Perhaps the counter argument is ‘why spend all this money on something only 2% of Portland will use?’ Throw in the casual Timbers fans and Beavers fans of all stripes, and we’ll round that up to 5% of Portland. 5% of Portland will enjoy the sports experiences resulting from this plan. Detractors are screaming about jobs and schools and homeless shelters and yes, the world is not yet perfect. My point is that everything about this deal is small: $85 million can’t be more than 5% of the city’s bonding capacity, and the plan insists that the city’s general fund NEVER be tapped. MLS2PDX won’t cure cancer or teach children to read or give every human a job, but it will employ a few hundred people in good jobs, infuse the local economy with a little more money, and make Portland a little better. This shouldn’t be such a big fucking deal. There are so many nattering nabobs of negativism mouthing off about this issue it boggles my mind. We get this city’s economy moving by doing lots of little things, like this, and roads and bridges. A businessman wants to spend $40 million of his own money to make PDX better. Let’s let him be part of Portland’s New Deal.
— Timbers fans are citizens of Portland, just like everyone else. Too often are we regarded as outsiders, or non-voters, or somehow not members of the citizenry. We are not drooling troglodytes, foaming at the mouth for violence. We are doctors, lawyers, government officials, students young and old, builders, teachers, office drones, chefs, postal workers, truck drivers, cabbies, writers, coders, musicians, brewers, baristas, reporters, and lumberjacks. We are Anglo, Afro, Latino, Native, and Asian Americans, native Portlanders and new immigrants – to America or just to Portland. We support the Timbers not because they’re a soccer team, but because they are Portland’s soccer team. To quote an anonymous member of the Timbers Army (poaching a movie):”That is my fatal flaw: my excess of Civic Pride.”All 4,000 Timbers Army scarves, and the uncounted numbers of t-shirts, pins, patches and tattoos are symbols of love for our team AND our city. There is no city on earth greater than Portland, and Timbers fans are a group of people who feel a communal sense of place, ownership and pride in this city beyond what might be rational. Believe beyond reason. When we root for the Timbers, we are telling the world: this is our team, playing in our house, in our city and for our community.
Rose City ’til I Die.
I’ll need to see specific research showing that there are Afro-American baristas among the Timbers’ fanbase. Otherwise this deal just doesn’t pencil out.
God!
At least one person following this story at the Mercury who knows the *value* of things and not just the *price* (and here I’m being kind to Davis, who doesn’t even *know* the price of things but has to ask other people and then runs their answers however illogical or poorly supported).
Thank you, Mr. Evans.
Sweet. Maybe those 4000 people can fund this expansion! Great idea!
Where to start with you guys. You’re hopeless.
Here’s one place to start: “I think we’re more than 2% of Portland.” First of all, no you’re not, but let’s assume for a second you are. Why should 100% of Portland spend $80 million to build you two stadia?
Second, Paulson’s $40 million investment is impressive,but it’s also less than half of what he wants the city to put in.
Third, I can’t find anyone to explain what this “guarantee” means. It certainly doesn’t mean that he’s paying back the bonds. These are public bonds. The best I can figure out is that in the highly unlikely event that the City goes bankrupt, then he’s supposed to pay them back. Of course, if hat ever happened Shortstop LLC will declare bankruptcy as well and cease to exist.
Here’s what it doesn’t mean: that Paulson is paying back the $80 million. The city is borrowing this money in the city’s name, and the public is paying back this money. It is public debt. Don’t let any “guarantees” which apply only to the worst case scenario fool you into believing otherwise.
I respect the Timbers Army. I don’t doubt you love soccer and Portland. But I don’t see why the entire city should build two stadia for you in the worst economic climate in 70 years.
Frankly, I don’t think you’ll get a new Urban Renewal district approved there anyway, so the question will be moot.
“At least one person following this story at the Mercury who knows the *value* of things and not just the *price*”
It’s really a shame that more people don’t understand the “value” in considering the price. There would be a lot of value in engineering giant badgers in labs to chew your face off, but I’m not footing the bill for that. And when you start thinking the value is all that’s worth considering, you’re already a lost cause. Go stand in line with all the other knuckle-draggers, screwhead. It would be gratifying to see the brains of the soldiers in the Timbers Army replaced with chainsaw blades.
@Blabby
Way to make an argument. I stopped reading at, “you’re hopeless.”
Thank you for putting this together so eloquently. Here’s to both hands full of crossed fingers Wednesday morning….
*RCTID*
“I don’t see why the entire city should build two stadia for you in the worst economic climate in 70 years.”
I don’t see why we spend anything at all? Surely our time would be better spent just whimpering and crying in the corner. Upgrade existing City property to attract higher rents? Bring 300-600 construction jobs online for a couple years? What are you, crazy?
Let’s follow the lead of the Cato guy instead. Or the shill for the Convention Center Hotel. Let’s pay attention to all those winners out there who still haven’t made it past the Paulson surname. Or the concern trolls who bemoan school funding but vote against every school bond and probably cheerleaded Measure 5. (You should wiki Measure 5, Matt, so you can condescend to educate Portlanders on Portland again.)
Blabby, I think you need to do some research on the concept of bonds, because you are so way off it’s not even funny.
And I really don’t understand your argument related to the economy. So, the city should crawl into a dark hole during this economic climate?
If anything, a better argument could be made for actually capitalizing on the down economy. Raw materials for building are at their lowest cost levels in years and will probably do nothing but go up in the coming years. Unemployment levels right now are at levels not seen in decades, and this SHOVEL-READY project puts people to work RIGHT NOW.
Hopefully, our city leadership is smarter than you when it comes to realizing an investment opportunity.
Blabby,
“Why should 100% of Portland spend $80 million to build you two stadia?”
One stadium already exists in the form of PGE Park. It is owned by the city. By investing in the stadium, the city can substantially increase rent, which Paulson is more than willing to pay. The new baseball stadium would also be owned by the city, and they would again be charging the baseball team rent. By building a significantly smaller park than PGE, they can charge rent that is more tailored to the cost of building the baseball stadium.
As for your comment about Paulson’s backing of the bonds, I believe he is talking about a personal indemnity. Personal, not through the company which owns the two teams. Which means his family’s personal wealth. But I’m sure we’ll learn the details of this in the days to come.
As for respecting the Timbers Army, it would mean a lot more if you informed yourself about the details of the plan.
If the naysayers of this proposal are going to argue that we shouldn’t spend any money on this because it only benefits a small percentage of people than you are arguing against the basic premise of government in the first place.
By that logic we shouldnt have programs for homeless or the poor or kids or parks or zoos or schools or bike lanes or public transit or anything else that benefits a small portion of the citizenry directly but indirectly benefits the city as a whole. The whole point of government is to make investments in things and people that many times are not “profitable” now and never will be. And in this case we are looking at something that has a chance to be profitable and actually feed the city’s coffers.
Thank you Mark for pointing out what this is really all about. Well reasoned and well written.
This sums things up nicely.
@ Dignified Rear Admiral
Please explain the value of engineering giant badgers in labs to chew your face off. This seems like a bad idea to me, but you’ve likely done more research on the subject than I have.
Thanks,
Concerned Citizen
Well done Mr. Evans! I heartily support bringing Major League Soccer to our great city. Don’t let all of the narrow minded soccer hate get you down, this is going to happen!
jseq, what did I get wrong about bonds? Please fill me in.
Guys, this is going to lose money. I just is. Are economists always right? Of course not. But do they tend to know more about economics and public finance than a bunch of soccer fans on Blogtown? Yes they do.
If you want to give people construction jobs then let’s do something more sound. Let’s fix our streets. Adams wanted to spend hundreds of millions on that last year. Surely those projects are still out there and “shovel ready.”
I know you like soccer, but pull it out guys.
“Sweet. Maybe those 4000 people can fund this expansion! Great idea!”
They will — by buying tickets, merchandise, and concessions, and supporting the conditions that will allow for 600 people to get much-needed construction jobs, and 300 people to get permanent jobs, who will be able to feed their families and pay their taxes, and the City will benefit from those tax revenues.
The MLS team won’t be called the Paulson Timbers, you ninny. It will be Portland’s team. We’re all going to fund it and support it.
zaq, the value of something is capitalized in the price of it. I.e. if a private investment in MLS can’t pay for itself, then the cost is too high.
Thus, Big City Paulson comes to the suckers, I mean the City Council, and asks for twice what he’s putting in, so that the investment will pencil out for him. And you all cheer and thank Paulson for rogering you.
@ Blabby
Why should I fund Social Security, I’m not old, i don’t even LIKE old people, and they use WAY more of my money.
*golfclap*
MLS2PDX. It’s now or never.
Write your city commissioners people! Let’s make March 11, 2009 a day to remember.
Hatzman, because you’re going to be old some day. Aren’t you? If you’re not going to use your Social Security, can I have it?
And if I went back and looked at Blogtown at the time of the Adams proposal Blabby I am going to guess that your were whining and complaining about that idea as well.
Negative nancy without a constructive thing to add.
And you still have never answered the question of how we could remodel PGE Park with 100% private capital without a) giving up interest in the property or b) forgoing a combination of rent/ticket surcharges thus negatively impacted to Spectators and Facilities Fund
“Negative nancy without a constructive thing to add.”
Taking on $80 million in descretionary debt during a depression ain’t constructive, slick.
We shouldn’t remodel PGE Park with public money. At all. We did it a few years ago and still owe $28.5 million for that effort.
Blabby, you ignorant slut.
If you had been remotely an educated person, you would have recognize my comment as an allusion to Oscar Wilde’s classic definition of a cynic: “a man who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing.”
I have no use for unlettered rubes.
Ah zaq, you have outclassed me again.
But speaking of rubes, can I have $80 million to make my personal business pencil out?
“If the naysayers of this proposal are going to argue that we shouldn’t spend any money on this because it only benefits a small percentage of people than you are arguing against the basic premise of government in the first place.
By that logic we shouldnt have programs for homeless or the poor or kids or parks or zoos or schools or bike lanes or public transit or anything else that benefits a small portion of the citizenry directly but indirectly benefits the city as a whole. The whole point of government is to make investments in things and people that many times are not “profitable” now and never will be. And in this case we are looking at something that has a chance to be profitable and actually feed the city’s coffers.”
That isn’t logic, because you are missing out on fundamental tenets of the benefits those programs provide. You want a public entity to support a for-profit entity with little value given back to the public. Can you not get it through your skull that not everyone wants professional sports in this city? If the professional sports were so wonderful, wouldn’t their stellar revenue generation speak for themselves? No, because they don’t. The economics of this plan are horrible.
Sure. Easy. Public transit: Saves a region in many ways: reduced traffic, affordable transportation, travel options, reduced carbon emmissions. This is why every major city has one. But not every city wants a money losing franchise. Public parks bring vastly more benefit to the population, for free, than any exclusive fringe sport. I’ve been to 20+ Portland parks, I’ll never visit a Pro Soccer game.
I could go on and on. But we all know this will never happen.
If 1% of the greater metro area showed up (Vancouver/Portland/Beaverton/Salem combined metro area), that would be 26,000 fans per game.
“Ah zaq, you have outclassed me again.”
About as hard as beating Stevie Wonder at tic-tac-toe.
Please to go drink a knife.
Hmmm. I call you classy, and you come back with a joke about taking advantage of a blind man.
Nobody can make a reasoned or logical argument to what Blabby is saying – instead, they just insult him and call him negative and unlettered.
@Finnegan re: use of government investment: No. Nobody questions that indirect benefits are the objective. The argument here is whether a stadium provides those benefits, and it’s interesting how the fans of this proposal consistently put up smoke screens. PROVE that this is a good investment and worth ripping Multnomah County off for. Nothing any of us nay-sayers have seen demonstrate that this is a good investment, period.
We all want the same thing: what is best for Portland. The objections come when some of are staggered and shocked at the idea that anyone thinks a stadium is a good investment.
@jseq: Giant badgers will provide sustainable energy in the form of methane, will cut costs to the Big Pipe Project by burrowing the tunnels for far less overhead, and would be WAY more entertaining than MLS. If I was a tourist, I wouldn’t go to Portland for the Timbers. I’d go to Portland to watch badgers eat the Timbers.
“They will — by buying tickets, merchandise, and concessions, and supporting the conditions that will allow for 600 people to get much-needed construction jobs, and 300 people to get permanent jobs, who will be able to feed their families and pay their taxes, and the City will benefit from those tax revenues.”
How about the MLS team lobby those 4,000 suckers for the money then? Everyone wins. Your logic doesn’t pan out when 4,000 in a city of hundreds of thousands have to convince us to spend money, bonds or not.
“The MLS team won’t be called the Paulson Timbers, you ninny. It will be Portland’s team. We’re all going to fund it and support it.”
No, we’re not. It will not pass. I would be very surprised if MLS survives a few more years before asking for government money/bailout.
Accruing debt to secure enhanced public facilities, put people to work, and ensure a larger revenue stream going forward during a depression?!? Madness.
I note again, Blabby, that you still have not adapted your argument to include the difference between money to get the building to code and money to actually upgrade the facility. Just as crumbling walls and feral cats are not conducive to a minor-league ballpark, a half-horseshoe with little to no amenities is not conducive to a major-league ballpark. And you’re not trolling?
Hisorically the Sounders have had great teams and dismal attendance. Unfortunately the Timbers have often struggled on the field, yet support for the Timbers has always been at the top of USL. The Seattle Sounders now have 20,000+ season ticket holders for the 09′ season after making the move to MLS, yeah sounds like a real loser.
Blabby, why do you hate fun?
And why do supporters keep insisting that well paying jobs will come out of this deal? Such fucking hogwash. “Fair wage” jobs DO NOT mean jobs with a wage that will support a family. Seriously, aside from temporary construction jobs (which can be put up for better projects), player salaries (which do not add significant tax benefits), and a handful of upper level management jobs – a new stadium gives you nothing.
Or if you think someone is going to get anywhere near $15/hr for selling T-shirts, I hope foot soldiers in the Timbers Army give up their cushy creative professional sector jobs to sign up.
The fact that I don’t agree with you doesn’t mean I’m a troll. Daaaaave, you may notice that despite the lack of an “actual upgrade” there are two sports teams playing there now.
Bradley, if one more person compares how Seattle works to how Portland “will” work, I might kick a puppy. Seriously, stop it. It’s idiotic.
Nice. I especially like: “We support the Timbers not because they’re a soccer team, but because they are Portland’s soccer team.”
“Blabby, why do you hate fun?”
I don’t hate fun. In fact I enjoy watching the Beavers, Timbers and Winterhawks a few times per year.
But at some point, we have to be responsible. The aerial tram is fun too. It came in at something like 5 times the original budget.
Progressives like to act like government just plucks money from trees, but really they pluck it from us. My kid will be in school in a few years, and I’d rather spend the money on that then flashy public booddogles. You know they’re canceling school days this year?
DRA,
Since you missed the point I will try again. Soccer support in the Rose City is far superior than up North. Their MLS franchise is off to a good start, ours will be even more of a success. I’m sorry you are so angry but this is just the way it is despite whatever it is you want to kick.
It’s really all potato-potato – Personally I think investments in infrastructure related to sports is fine. The return on the investment is usually a sense of community unity and general good will. Sometimes there is a monetary benefit and sometimes there isn’t.
Blabby actually has valid concerns. I just think they’ve been answered over and over… He clearly doesn’t think so. Agree to disagree and we’ll see how the council votes on Wednesday. I’d love to have your support for the project but you aren’t going to change your mind.
You misunderstand me, Blabby. I have no problems with disagreements. If the financials behind this deal do not work out, I will be disappointed, but will completely back the Council’s decision. I generally agree with the notion that the General Fund should not be put at risk. I think you would find that sentiment broadly shared among the pro-soccer community.
What I find trollish is the continuation of argument lines that have either already been resolved or already identified as red herring. The conflation between the *renovation* of PGE Park in 2001 just to get it to a usable level and the proposed *upgrade* of the Park for MLS use being an obvious one.
Mark and stadium supporters: You’re presenting an emotional argument, here’s mine. When I was 14 I wanted a motorcycle, but my father was laid off from his job at the time. Nevertheless I begged and pleaded for that motorcycle, until my mom finally said, “YOUR FATHER DOES NOT HAVE A JOB. I know you want what you want, but think of your family first.”
Your family isn’t the Timbers or other soccer fans. It’s Portland. Don’t hurt us because of your perceived needs.
“My kid will be in school in a few years, and I’d rather spend the money on that then flashy public booddogles.”
Actually PPS’s annual budget is $400 million per year. This would be around $1.5 million per year that would be paid back and is guaranteed to be paid back. Talking about an effect on the schools is a little ridiculous. The stadium funds would be an absolute speck on the radar if they came out of the school’s budget. They don’t so your argument is…?
@Teddy
This isn’t affecting the school budget or general fund. There is no risk to the city…thus…nobody is getting hurt.
I’ll be the first to give up my “cushy professional sector job”…And what do you do, that let’s you be in here for hours? Not exactly a working class hero.
What a jackass
And for want of that motorcycle sale, the engine plant closed down and more people were put out of work. Yadda yadda yadda. All the more reason to fund a project that improves existing City property and puts people back to work.
Bradley – Is Seattle’s team supported by corporate investment – and, if yes, where is that corporate investment going to come from in Portland?
Hey charolastra ~ If you must know, I was laid off in this awesome economy of ours. The idea of putting down money for a stadium that benefits me, and thousands like me, in NO WAY whatsoever while many of us are almost starving, is worse than stupid.
Wrong again Garrett. The money Merritt Paulson pays is rent which covers part of the cost of operations of the parks. The bonds are not paid back with the rent Merritt Paulson pays.
I am glad that the ostrich crowd who would think it is prudent to hide their heads in the ground during an economic downturn weren’t running the country during the Great Depression. We wouldn’t have been left with the amazing accomplishments the WPA achieved. Who resents the fact that we have Timberline Lodge. The good citizens of Eugene don’t resent their Civic Stadium. It was built in 1938 through a public-private partnership between the Eugene Area Chamber of Commerce, Eugene School District 4J and the federal Works Progress Administration. How did that pencil out? That generation invested in the community and left an amazing legacy. Too bad our generation doesn’t have the same foresight.
DRA, the money will not only go to construction jobs, but will help timber, steel, and concrete companies who are hard up for work in an economy in which commercial loans are hard to find. In other words, it will help secure some jobs that already in place, will create new temporary construction jobs, and will create new permanent jobs.
Maybe it won’t help you personally — well, there are lots of road construction and education projects that won’t help you personally either.
“Public parks bring vastly more benefit to the population, for free, than any exclusive fringe sport. I’ve been to 20+ Portland parks, I’ll never visit a Pro Soccer game.”
I’ve been to maybe 5 public parks here in my entire Portland native-born life. I have, however, been to nearly every Timbers match on the entire west coast since 2004. But, clearly your hobbies and pastimes are worth more than mine.
No one ever plays soccer in those public parks you visit, either, eh? No hundreds of little kids dreaming of playing pro soccer? Good thing, because they’d have to leave home someday and play somewhere else, anyway.
I especially like the new comment from Teddy telling us about who our family is. Unfortunately, my family consists of the Timbers and other soccer fans, and WE are all a part of the Portland family.
It is through my Timbers family that I have volunteered for social causes and projects, joined clubs, and traveled the world. We have participated in raising thousands for charitable causes and organizations here and abroad. No, wait, I’ve changed my mind; you’re all right. We have no interest in this city and our fellow Portlanders other than having the ability to watch a little ball getting kicked across a pitch. Yeah. Silly us and our big ideas.
Garrett, I respect that we may just have to disagree.
Daaaaave: “If the financials behind this deal do not work out, I will be disappointed, but will completely back the Council’s decision.” The don’t have them worked out. Read the task force report you linked to. The financial details are incredibly hazy. But apparently they’re going to vote on it anyway.
I don’t mean to be disingenuous about the difference between the last upgrade and this upgrade. But to me they’re just one big hunk of debt on a structure that isn’t going to be worth $70 million. The city will be “underwater” on it from the get go, in the parlance of our times (get that reference zaq?).
Garrett, it makes perfect sense to me to talk about where our money is going (schools vs. something like this.) Urban Renewal projects are funded with money that would go to other jurisdictions like the county, the schools, the port, etc if it weren’t for the UR district. For three years my title was “Urban Renewal Planner”. I know more about that issue than anyone here, I promise you.
Blabby, honest question as you have expertise in urban renewal. Using TIF financing, does all increase in property value have to go to the debt used to pay for the project, or can only the increase in property value beyond inflation go to the debt?
If the former, the normal recipients of the tax revenues would actually lose money over time because their funding would not increase with inflation. But if the latter, then the normal recipients will have a constant cash flow. It simply won’t increase due to increased property values.
Is that right? I’m honestly curious because I have only started learning about urban renewal districts and TIF financing recently due to this whole issue.
Blabby, those financial details are those in the task force recommendation piece. I am certain that Paulson’s team provided more detail that those sketched in the recommendation and I’m less certain, but still positive that the ongoing negotations between Leonard and Paulson contain more precision than that. That task force report was drafted 2 or 3 weeks ago now (time is slipping away from me). Since then, Paulson’s group have been meeting over at City Hall on nearly a daily basis. It may be naive, but I’m taking it on faith that those hazy details would be more strikingly defined before a vote takes place.
Captain: “If the former, the normal recipients of the tax revenues would actually lose money over time because their funding would not increase with inflation.”
That is the case. The current tax base is frozen and not adjusted for inflation. Urban Renewal is a good tool, but it has be handled with a lot of care, because of the cost to other jurisidictions.
The County for instance, who provide the vast amount of our social services have been frozen out of receiving new tax reveneu from large swaths of downtown for decades. They haven’t received the tax benefit of all the development in the Pearl, for example.
Multnomah County estimates that if the UR districts were dissolved tomorrow, it would receive $20 million it does not receive now.
As someone who understands UR from the inside, I’m very alarmed with how it’s used (abused) in the City of Portland.
My experience is not in this city, so I don’t have all the details down, but since the 1950’s I believe that Portland has set up 15 or 16 urban renewal districts, and only four have been allowed to expire.
They tend to be endlessly extended or expanded and the other districts never see the benefits come back to their coffers.
That’s $20 million a year, by the way.
Thanks for the clarification. I hope the deal goes through on other grounds, but I hope a URD is not in the deal that gets voted on.
Correction: It looks like out of 17 urban renewal districts in Portland’s history, 6 have expired.
It’s a massive chicken and egg question with URD’s Blabby and you know it.
The County estimates it would receive $20 million more tomorrow if you got rid of all URD’s but would that $20 million in property taxes even be there if the URD’s did not exist? And how much money in income taxes, business taxes, permits etc went into County and State coffers as a result of jobs created by the construction boom, business fees etc as well as ongoing jobs.
On top of that the county stands to gain through long term property taxes for areas like the Pearl that were paying exactly $0 in property taxes 15 years ago because the area was empty warehouses and land.
I think we can agree that URD’s should expire. We can meet on common ground there but I have little sympathy for the County when they are refusing to disclose what the benefit on the other side of the ledger has been if there were never any URD’s.
Hey Captain Haddock:
You missed the part where I said that ANY infrastructure project would help construction jobs, steel jobs, timber, etc. It doesn’t have to be the bad investment that MLS is.
I don’t care whether it helps me personally – you clearly missed the part where I pointed out that everyone wants the same thing: what’s best for Portland. MLS is not best for Portland. It’s best for Timbers fans.
Yup, six hundred temporary construction jobs, four hundred part-time concession jobs at minimum wage, and only costing YOU the taxpayer eighty-five million dollars, NOT counting cost over-runs. What a Steal. Where can I get me some of that action. AND, Johnny still can’t read or talk. And, if ya believe all the hype instead of the figures,where MLS lost an average of 1.6 million a year, NEVER call a hilbilly stupid again. IT JUST DON”T WASH, and that dog don’t hunt.
Yup, and too chicken to use their REAL name. Makes ya wonder what they’re hiding, don’t it?
Wow, the last two posters really get what this is all about. How about not?
There’s lots of people that care about MLS here, and not just within the Portland area, as I get questions about when Portland will join MLS because of the passion and energy we show in supporting our team. For some of us, it’s a little more than just watching a game, but you have to be here to understand.
And the jobs here are real, not just fake minimum wage jobs, but jobs within the front office or doing other tasks for the team, but hey, I can understand if some folks here don’t want to care to learn about the facts. They here $85 million and soccer, and because of pre-conceived notions, they immediately say it won’t work. I say differently, based on what we can do here and now. I’m not a shill, I’m a soccer fan who wants a good deal for Portland for now and beyond.
But gee, with all the classy and intelligent commentary here, why would I want to hang around here any longer that I have to? Johnny may not be able to read or write, but he can sure make up a whole lot of shit without too much effort.
As a Portland native I hope this plan goes through. I have always thought Portland should and would support another pro team other than the Blazers.
As a Portland native I hope this plan goes through. I have always thought Portland should and would support another pro team other than the Blazers.
I agree with Dale. 600 temporary construction jobs at $85 million means we’re paying $142k per job. Does that make sense to anyone else?
“Yup, and too chicken to use their REAL name. Makes ya wonder what they’re hiding, don’t it?”
Dale, you do realize why this isn’t really a legitimate debate tactic, yeah?
Sheesh! Is there not a single soccer fan out there who understands financial feasibility? Get over it and come up with some other way to pay for your soccer dream.
@huh?
Nope. I’m mostly leveraging my soccer dream on your childs education. I don’t feel bad about that considering how much effort I’ve made for education in Portland and I really don’t give two fraks about kids anymore. It’s pointless…you’ll never win that battle because the state essentially owns the education…luck to you sucka…I hear Nick Kahl has an open line when he’s not getting wasted on Hawthorne or at a house party.
Anyone opposed to this project is a paid shill for the Blazers! Clearly they stand to gain from MLS not coming to Portland.
Not to ruin the fun of those opposed to Major League Soccer coming to Soccer City USA but if your argument is backed up by your knowledge of total money being spent, you are most likely uninformed. To the best of my knowledge neither the city or Shortstop LLC has released the final numbers or terms of this deal. I will not be assuming anything until it is official. I find it is a lot easier not to catch myself talk out of my ass this way.
… And I think this is a wonderful representation of how good this can be for Portland. Thank you Mr. Evans.
Progressives like to act like government just plucks money from trees, but really they pluck it from us. My kid will be in school in a few years, and I’d rather spend the money on that then flashy public booddogles. You know they’re canceling school days this year?
Another misinformed statement made by you Blabby. Simply untrue. Summer break for the kids has even been hit. PPS has added an extra day at the end.
Oh look! Numbers!
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.s…
Our school problems cannot be solved simply by throwing money at them. There is something fundamentally wrong with the system and the people involved in it. I was a teacher for many years and recently moved on to a career that does not necessarily pay better, but it does allow me to speak my mind and disagree with my superiors.
Constant multiple choice testing limits options and creates mindless drones. We are no longer encouraging creativity or complex thinking. We just try to get them to pass the test so that we will not lose funding. The few teachers that still care are frustrated and tired. The system needs an overhaul. Until this situation has been addressed, I would rather my money go toward something that builds community.
Did you know that each year many schools each throw out thousands of dollars of supplies and equipment after the end of the school year? This includes furniture, art supplies, library books, etc.? They are not allowed to sell it under current regulations, and must get rid of it before they get funding in those areas the next year. There is a lot of dumpster diving at that time of year by those in the know. That is a great use of our tax dollars right there.
I personally enjoy the roads arguments, too. Stop driving your 4×4 with studded tires when its not snowing and maybe we wouldn’t have to repave so much.
OK, all of you folks that care so much about education, roads, etc…
Are you ready to abolish the kicker? That would solve plenty of these problems. Unfortunately most of the state is heavily against that…including so called “progressives” that care so much about education and roads.
fuck the blazers. the blazers suck. merritt paulson should bulldoze the rose garden and build the beavers a new stadium there. and fuck the children. we all know they won’t use their education anyways. we can just hire them right away to do all the work. i know nothing tastes better than a polish dog and a beer served by a tired, sweaty, malnourished 12 year old just trying to earn an honest buck. and don’t get me started on the homeless. lazy fucking bastards. why are we wasting our money on them when there are stadiums to remodel and build?
wouldn’t it be great if we could all collectively spew random uninformed bullshit on the internet under the guise of anonymity? oh wait, that is what we’re doing.
face it. everything that you anti-mls people have against this, other than personal bias, is several month old information that was clarified for you 15 times on this page alone. you try to feign some kind of superiority, but everyone can see how painfully hypocritical you are.
fuck shittle.