You know, I wish that supporters of these homeless camps would just admit that there is no debating them. When I listened to that Think Out Loud segment regarding Hazelnut Grove, I could swear I heard THREE people say that they were choosing to live homeless and wanted everyone to pay for this lifestyle choice. I’ve brought it up in conversation and each and every time, liberals just ignore it or try to change the subject.
I liken it to the right-wing STILL claiming that Obama is a Muslim and that he went on an “Apology Tour” after taking office. When asked for facts to back up these claims, they typically repeat themselves or change the subject.
The same behavior is exhibited by liberals who think all homeless are good, decent folk simply down on their luck and would love to get indoors, if only people cared. Bring up the THREE people who clearly stated they were choosing to be homeless and let the ignoring or subject-changing begin!
I would almost respect them more if they just said, “Yes, I believe that if someone chooses to not have a job, the rest of society should give them their money to support that lifestyle.” I wouldn’t agree with them, but I would respect them for at least not beating around the fucking bush.
Seeing this delusional behavior exhibited on both sides of the political aisle (more so on the Right), it makes you realize that we’re all doomed.
Fuck it, I’m quitting my job and getting a free ride!
If I was more creative, I’d work this into a graphic novel called Hale’s Heros with Charlie in the Capt Hogan role, Fritz as Col Klink, and PPB as Sgt Schultz.
That is, to say, I agree with you.
The reason liberals don’t want to talk about people who are “choosing to be homeless” is because if you care for and respect humanity and our society, it’s irrelevant.
I think most liberals believe all people, regardless of their mental or physical health, employment status, or legal situation, deserve to sleep somewhere safe and warm and have access to a minimal level of nutrition, hydration and personal sanitation.
But this isn’t really about what people deserve. It’s about what they and our society need. We can do our best to minimize the danger homelessness causes to society and to the homeless themselves, or we can spend money on security cameras and stronger fences and locks for our homes, more police, bigger jails, etc., etc., etc. NIMBY is not only gutless and selfish, it’s self-defeating in the long term.
Yes, there are homeless who are homeless by choice. Always have been and always will be. Then there are those who have suffered personal catastrophe and are not there by choice. Is it better to give some a free ride while helping the deserving or just assume they are all there by choice and fuck the victims? That’s the choice.
@eprophet: Your comment is the perfect manifestation of my (I wrote it) post.
It’s a simple question: if someone chooses to not work and be a layabout (whether it’s train-hopping, busking or pure entitled laziness; I assume you’re smart enough to know that there is an entire culture of people who choose this homeless lifestyle), do you think the rest of us working people should pay to support them?
Yes… or no?
Let us know where you stand and be proud of your convictions!
Bud,
I think most people (liberals or not) operate from the perspective that nobody in their right mind would choose to live the homeless lifestyle, therefore, those that do are just a small percentage of the overall homeless population. I.E. The exceptions to the rule.
The problem with that logic is that it fails to take into account the fact that many people realize that there’s a disincentive to work based on the tax and power structures. Why work harder for $30-40K/yr than someone making $90K and pay a similar percentage of your taxes? Why work for minimum wage when entitlements provide a rough equivalent in the level of benefits? And if you do work for $40K/yr or less, don’t forget to thank your employer profusely for providing your subsistence lifestyle.
Now I certainly don’t agree with choosing the homeless lifestyle, but I can understand why some would. That said, there’s no way on this earth that the taxpayers should be responsible for funding their permanent vacation. Anybody that considers that point of view to be callous and uncaring is simply misguided. There are services available for those truly in need. ESPECIALLY in Portland!!!
Most of the bleeding heart liberals who profess to care so much probably don’t do a goddamned thing for the homeless anyway. They just love that feeling of moral superiority one gets when you profess to care so much about everybody, regardless of their plight. And as far as the homeless camps go, I’ve yet to meet anybody with one in their backyard that isn’t terrified and disgusted by the presence of those lawless shanty towns.
Keep Portland Feckless everyone!!!!!
@demondog: I partially agtee with you. While I don’t think it’s right to dismantle all social services for instances of fraud, I do believe that when it’s discovered, it needs to be weeded out. When instances of fraud or abuse are revealed in the welfare program, those people are certainly denied benefits.
My point is: Since Hazelnut Grove has an occupancy limit and we know there are people there who truly don’t need that space or resources… why not weed them out? Why not give that space to people who are truly in need?
Personally, I find it offensive that someone would knowingly take up resources for people who really are homeless, not just choosing to be.
@Bud. I think we pretty much agree on that. Fraudsters should be denied benefits they don’t deserve. Personally, I wouldn’t be happy if a homeless camp sprouted up next to my home. I don’t think the city’s approach is the best approach. I don’t think they should be allowed to camp wherever they want to camp. We have laws regulating that stuff, for good reason. I was just addressing any point of view that they are all there by choice. They aren’t, tho some clearly are.
Here are a few ways to solve the homeless problem-
1. Build a wall. Homeless people can’t climb, it’s science.
2. Give them a one way ticket to San Francisco. Tell them a new Facebook app will find them a place to live and food, no job required.
3. Force churches to become homeless shelters during off hours… or Churches have to pay taxes
4. Invade the camps with beer and food but don’t share. Eat and drink to your hearts delight and leave the trash in the camp for them to pick up.
I’m going blank on a few others, but they’ll come back to me.
Go quit
If you’re stealing bread, I’ll give you bread.
It’s not so black and white. Most very poor people have cognitive issues, which is just another way of saying they are fucked up. Living outside with no resources is an objectively terrible life. If you had a choice, I think we all agree you would choose a house. Some fool that lives outside and says he does it by choice is lying to himself to a degree. These people do need help. The amount of “our” resources, i.e. tax dollars, that is going to solving this problem is extremely small. We should be spending more money trying to fix the systemic social problems that lead to this. You are trying to turn it into a moral issue: these people are lazy so they deserve nothing. You are right that they don’t “deserve” anything. Nobody does. But as a society we have to decide whether we are willing to work to solve the structural, systemic social problems that cause homelessness. Just blaming homeless people for their predicament is beyond pointless. Basically, you are stupid and want to blame poor people for being poor. But you are in good company since most Americans readily agree with you. I.e. this country is full of sanctimonious, scapegoating, moralizing jerks.
Around, but doesn’t it seem pretty clear that many people are in fact choosing being homeless as a lifestyle?
are you not, as well, turning this into a Moral Issue?
while I agree with you that there are many who must obviously be intellectually incompetent, doesn’t a system that coddles lend itself to even more abuse?
And will not the truly feeble be even further at risk of losing social services by increased demand?
@Around – You forgot to drop the mic. (;
Out of all the injustices and inequality in the world, this is the battle you pick to fight? @Around put it very eloquently. “You are stupid”.
Reminder. The folks educating YOUR kids make the 40k or less that you seem to say justifies not working @trayvonnorris
@Serious
My brother is a 1st year teacher in PPS and makes well over the $40K threshold. However, he and I discussed his upcoming tax liability in great detail last week. He, like anyone making under $125K/yr, is getting hosed on taxes.
I wouldn’t blame my brother, or anyone at a similar salary range, if they opted to work somewhere else for less money and less stress. The net impact on their take home pay would relatively low down to around the $50K mark.
Do you think it’s fair that someone making $40K-$90K/yr is paying 25% in taxes on any income over $37,500/yr? And that’s just the feds.
Might I suggest that you reread my comment above. Nowhere did I attempt to justify choosing the homeless style over earning an honest living.
for every penny spent on social services, taxpayers pay thousands of dollars for oil subsidies, bank bailouts and military contractors gutting the planet. quit whining about social services and start asking your politicians where most of your tax money really goes.
They ignore you because it is dumb to reduce the issue to “do you choose to be homeless” in the first place. Real life is not black and white, and one does not “choose” to be homeless. They in part may “choose” not to equate work with serving someone elses agenda and submitting to their dictation- all so you can pretend that making the latest computer chip for the i-phone 6 or serving fast food burgers is “contributing to society”. Literally some hippies in the hills will walk 25 miles a day with a big bag of cans- twice the work and half the pay for some day labor jobs, but they don’t like doing what they are told.
Rationally speaking we were put in a world full of resources GIVEN to us as a species with two hands to harness them with and work should by no line of reasoning have much to do with submitting to another will to harness these resources with. There is no reason one should be compelled to follow society if they choose not to.
The fact that you think it should even be something worth noting that they chose their own way is the stupid thing. If you own the land then dispute it, if you don’t then you don’t and should accept that your CHOICE to live up to social norms does not entitle you to force others to do the same- even if they are in your neighborhood. Your social norms have infact established a culture of overproduction, over consumption, false consciousness among working citizens who thing they are contributing by mindlessly kissing ass and calling it work, and alienation between people. Homeless people are healthy to have around.
…. What a load of crap.
You better be right when you use a word like sanctimonious.